From the Mouths of Babes

[stillakid]

So, as part of my (now) traditional preparation before seeing a new Star Wars film in the theater, I run a mini-film festival in the comfort of my own home. Starting at Episode IV, we watch them in order of production.

Happily this is the first year that my son is really able to sit and watch them all with me. Well, we've really just started and are actually in the middle of ANH as I type this.

Him being just 7 years old, his best memories are of TPM, as he was old enough to see that in the theater, but he did see the OT previous to that (when he was around 4 or so).

Anyway, all of that is important, because in the middle of the scene where Old Ben is explaining Luke's father, my son turns to me and says, "Why doesn't he mention Qui Gon?" For those of you that pay attention to my frequent rants on these boards, you'll know that that is one of my biggest problems with TPM. I've never mentioned that to him ever, so it made a dad proud that jr. figured it out for himself. If a 7 year old can see the obvious problem, why is it so difficult for all of the 30-somethings out there?


In a strange coincidence of fate, last evening, my wife and I caught one of the new commercials for AOTC on tv. It was the Obi Wan theme I think. Anyway, after it ends, she turns to me and says something to the effect of "what happened to Yoda being the one to train Obi Wan?" I swear I've never mentioned this stuff out loud here. Nobody would have paid attention to me anyway. But there you have it.

[master jedi]

From what I know about Yoda and Episode 2 Yoda helps in training the younger kids that aren't quite old enough to become a Padawan to a Jedi Knight/Master. But this is just one thing I've heard.

OB1 probably didn't mention Gui-Qon to Luke because there probably no importance(sp?).

[stillakid]

Originally posted by master jedi

OB1 probably didn't mention Gui-Qon to Luke because there probably no importance(sp?).

He didn't mention Qui Gon in Ep IV, V, or VI because the character wasn't invented out of thin air until the late 1990's. I've previously laid out all of the evidence that convicts George of not doing his homework and writing a bad script. I just wanted to post what my son said because it seemed so poignant.

[LTBasker]

While it is understandable why Qui is in E1, I just wish everything wasn't gonna be left to E3 to connect the rest of the dots.

By understandable I mean: Obi-Wan and Anakin were supposed to be young, and it appears George wanted to save Yoda for E2 so he created Qui-Gon so that he would've been the one to find Anakin instead of padawan Obi-Wan who would've been alone with Yoda staying on Coruscant due to him being saved for E2. I'm guessing due to Obi-Wan's needing to be younger and a padawan was so he wouldn't have to be near Obi-Wan's age in ANH therefore not having to look nearly as much like Alec Guiness.

I guess though. :D

[2-1B]

Stillakid,
being the fan of midichlorians that you are, I think you'll appreciate this. I was reading a report from Hayden Christensen's appearance at Celebration 2 and when a young child asked him what he had to do to become a Jedi like Anakin, Hayden asked the kid if he knew what his midichlorian count is. :D

[bigbarada]

Personally, it's not that I don't see what you are talking about, I just don't agree that it's a problem, stillakid. Maybe the redone versions of the OT will fix any seeming continuity errors; which if you really think about can be easily explained.

It's not that GL didn't do his homework, he just decided to rewrite portions of the story. No big deal.

[Jason B]

yes, that's basicly what he's doing. things don't line up now, but they will. this is going to be it, so he wants to make these movies as good as possible, and then he will go back and tweak the rest of them.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by bigbarada
Maybe the redone versions of the OT will fix any seeming continuity errors


That's what I'm afraid of. But then again, I plan to do some significant re-editing on the OT Special Editions and TPM (EP II and III TBD) to make them into what I want them to be.;) You know, stuff like, take out screaming baby Luke, reinstate Vader's "Bring my Shuttle" line, reinstate "It's lucky you don't taste very good," Greedo doesn't fire first...etc. etc. All the stuff that makes no sense or wasn't as good. This is the digital revolution coming round to bite Lucas in the patooty!:D

[ANAKIN_SOLO]

And something that bugs me, Ben asks like he dont know R2-D2 at all in ANH, when they ride around in the royal starship AND R2-D2 saves them all.

[Dryanta]

Hey guys.Here's one that just happened.
My neighors 2 year old grandson just walked in and right up to my Bandai super premium Godzilla.He's two feet tall and four feet long.And VERY expensive!!!He says"Is this a giant dinosaur?"
I reply "sure is".He looks at me just as serious and says"Can I take him outside and play with him?"
Struck me really funny.of course the answer was no thank you,but it was funny none the less.

[Bel-Cam Jos]

Today, I was in Target looking for AOTC figures I had yet to locate. I saw Dooku and Hanger Anakin, so I snagged one of each. I was searching for others (mainly Yoda), and a little girl was also looking, just to the left of me. Just as I was satisfied there weren't any others I didn't yet have, she said "I found Yoda! I found Yoda!" Apparently it was the one figure she wanted. Her mom told her she used to have the "original" Yoda when the movies first came out. Even though I didn't get Yoda, I felt good that someone was glad about a toy, not a collectible, and that parents and kids can relate about something. Great! :)

[stillakid]

My brilliant son, who was the inspiration for this thread in the first place, just had a very busy weekend (birthday parties, baseball game, etc.). He was very tired, but being 7, refused to lay down for a nap.

We had to continue our AOTC prep, so I suggested we sit down and finish it off with a viewing of TPM. Now, to be fair, he was tired to start with, but the Tatooine sequence finished him off. He dozed on the floor until the final battle was beginning. The pacing of that desert stuff is just so bad it finally dropped someone I know into unconsciousness.

[LTBasker]

I don't blame him, they needed less CGI, more droids and more fighting. It really doesn't make sense considering the only real security in ANH was the Empire's troopers and yet Dr. Evazan was able to get into bar fights without a second thought but with no armed security forces and several "moody" species around you'd think there'd be several background fights than just two CGI characters getting into it cause of Jar-Jar's hunger. :p

Sure there was the cutscene of Ani vs. Greedo but I'm glad they left that out, Lucas embarassed Greedo enough in '97. :frus:
Definitely should've left in Qui chopping the probe and him knocking Maul from the starship's boarding ramp.

[bigbarada]

Originally posted by stillakid
My brilliant son, who was the inspiration for this thread in the first place, just had a very busy weekend (birthday parties, baseball game, etc.). He was very tired, but being 7, refused to lay down for a nap.

We had to continue our AOTC prep, so I suggested we sit down and finish it off with a viewing of TPM. Now, to be fair, he was tired to start with, but the Tatooine sequence finished him off. He dozed on the floor until the final battle was beginning. The pacing of that desert stuff is just so bad it finally dropped someone I know into unconsciousness.

I can't count the number of times ANH has put me to sleep. Same with TPM and ROTJ. ESB is the only one that holds my interest the entire way through. Not saying that those movies are bad; but once you've seen them several hundred times, it's kind of hard to be surprised by them anymore.

[187-Maul]

bigb, that's one reason why I probably won't see E-2 several times in the cinema casue when I've seen it about 5 times and get it on video/dvd it's usualy not that good anymore when I see it
but when I've only seen it one or maybe two times it's way more exciting to see it again and pay more attention to the background and details

[scruffziller]

Kids will learn things faster and hang onto something in their mind because everyting is a wonderment to them, for us older folks, things don't excite us as much as they do when we were children and as humans we only really remember things that we enjoy.

[Jason B]

does this explain why I'm failing math? ;)

[Jedi of the North]

Well hello, long, long time reader, first time poster.
IMO, The reason that Ben does not mention Qui Gon Jinn in ANH is, That information is really not integral to the curretn situation, lets back up a bit.
20ish years ago your apprentice whom is like a son/brother/best friend does the absolute worst thing he can do, go to the darkside. In a series of desperate decision you decide to save his wife and daughter on Alderaan, and watch over his son for 20 years on Tatooine.
Present: you finally come into contact with young Luke, who has a droid, R2 D2. This dorid has a hologram message from none other than his sister, Leia and we are thrust into the rebellion. Ben sees his chance to get the ball rolling on making things right and decptively manipulates Luke into coming with him to Alderaan. He cleverly answers Luke questions about his father and divulges nothing to detailed or accurate. So then why would he mention Qui Gon?, He doesn't mention Yoda either, or Mace, Just Anakin, Obi Wan and Darth Vader. He is trying to get Luke to come along, not giving Luke a lesson about the Skywalker family tree. Of course Qui Gon didn't exist in the 70's, but the fact that he does now, doesn't mean he ne=eeds to be mentioned in the OT. He plays no part in the story or the motivations of the characters, it made sense for 22 years, why would he need to be mentioned now?

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Jedi of the North
Well hello, long, long time reader, first time poster.
IMO, The reason that Ben does not mention Qui Gon Jinn in ANH is, That information is really not integral to the curretn situation, lets back up a bit.
20ish years ago your apprentice whom is like a son/brother/best friend does the absolute worst thing he can do, go to the darkside. In a series of desperate decision you decide to save his wife and daughter on Alderaan, and watch over his son for 20 years on Tatooine.
Present: you finally come into contact with young Luke, who has a droid, R2 D2. This dorid has a hologram message from none other than his sister, Leia and we are thrust into the rebellion. Ben sees his chance to get the ball rolling on making things right and decptively manipulates Luke into coming with him to Alderaan. He cleverly answers Luke questions about his father and divulges nothing to detailed or accurate. So then why would he mention Qui Gon?, He doesn't mention Yoda either, or Mace, Just Anakin, Obi Wan and Darth Vader. He is trying to get Luke to come along, not giving Luke a lesson about the Skywalker family tree. Of course Qui Gon didn't exist in the 70's, but the fact that he does now, doesn't mean he ne=eeds to be mentioned in the OT. He plays no part in the story or the motivations of the characters, it made sense for 22 years, why would he need to be mentioned now?

Welcome long time listener, first time caller! :)

We've been through this before and ended up in circles. A quick review of the facts and the subsequent "results."

As you mentioned, Qui Gon didn't exist in the '70's.

Qui Gon wasn't mentioned anywhere in the OT.

The "understanding" by the audience from the OT is that Yoda trained/instructed Obi Wan Kenobi. (Several lines of dialogue throughout the OT support this)

-----

Ok, so at present, they DO conflict, the OT and the Prequels. Yoda was supposed to be Obi Wan's teacher (only teacher) as suggested in the OT and the Prequel's invented a new teacher for Obi Wan. You said it yourself, Qui Gon wasn't invented in the '70s. By nearly everyone's account, that's not in question. Ergo, a conflict.

What does this mean? You've suggested that it can be rationalized away because Obi Wan's explanation to Luke was entirely motivated by his desire to drag the kid along and get him involved. That's not true. Old Ben did "bend the truth" about Luke's father in order to save the youth the emotional pain at that particular point in time (and also because, in Obi's mind anyway, "Anakin" really was dead.)

But, this has nothing to do with the "who taught Obi Wan" question. Obi has no motivation to hide the truth (that Qui Gon was the actual teacher).

So why the conflict?

Perhaps Lucas left that bit out of the OT just to streamline the story? Maybe, but refer back to your own statement that agrees that Qui Gon didn't exist in the '70s. So that certainly wasn't the reason to leave out the Qui Gon reference. Ergo, once again, a conflict.

Perhaps there's a "story" reason that Old Ben wouldn't have told Luke about Qui Gon. I keep hearing this one: "well, he didn't have to." That's usually followed up by some convoluted ridiculous "made up" dialogue that attempts to "prove" this idea. Old Ben certainly DOES mention Yoda. And the specifics of that are the source of the conflict. In ESB, Spirit Ben tells Luke, "You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." Take note of the name "Yoda" and the word "THE" right before "Jedi Master who instructed me." Ergo, conflict.

My own 7 year old son, at absolutely no prodding by me, turned to me the last time we watched ANH and ESB, and asked why Obi Wan didn't mention Qui Gon Jinn? It's an obvious question that even a little kid has the wherewithall to ask.

But you do pose a good question in there: is the Qui Gon name "integral" to the situation at hand in the OT? I suppose not, but then why hide the info from Luke? Why "lie" to him about that? Remember, he wasn't really "lying" about the father thing because he really did believe that "Anakin" was dead, so that's not a reliable avenue for dispute. He could have easily said, "There you will learn from Yoda, a Jedi Master who instructed me." But then again, Qui Gon wasn't invented yet as you agree. Conflict.

So once again, I'll explain what I think happened in Lucas's mind to cause this problem. For unknown reasons, he decided to get no help in writing TPM anywhere in the process. Every other film that he's ever "made," perhaps with the exception of THX-1138, he had help writing. He admits that he hates writing (American Grafitti DVD, Making of Documentary). He admits that he screwed up TPM (Episode I, Making of Documentary). So he set about writing this story and needed a victim for his villain. He also decided that a young Obi Wan should be there to kill off the villain. So who should die. It either had to be a) an innocent bystander, b) Obi Wan's Padawan, or c) Obi Wan's teacher.

The problem with choice "a" is that the emotional investment by the audience and the subsequent emotional impact wouldn't be great enough for the climax of the film.

The problem with choice "b" is that Obi Wan is apparently too young to have his own Padawan. Plus, having the Padawan die might have the same problems as with choice "a." This would have been the best option for Lucas to have used and would have not have caused a conflict in regards to the "who is Obi Wan's teacher" question, but introduces a new set of problems as to when Obi Wan takes on Anakin as his Padawan. He says in the OT that "...but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." That statement is chock full of proof that Qui Gon is a conflicting character. In particular to the choice "b" question though, we are led to believe that Obi Wan had only one Padawan and none before Anakin, so choice "b" is out. This assertion is also backed up by dialogue in AOTC. Dooka says that Qui Gon was his Padawan, and Dooka was Yoda's Padawan. The idea is that a Jedi teacher gets just one Padawan in his lifetime.

What about Yoda teaching the "younglings?" Maybe that's the "out." Maybe Spirit Ben's statement refers to Yoda as just one of his teachers? Maybe so, except that he says, "Yoda, THE Jedi Master who instructed me." So looking at it in pure terms based on this new "youngling" info, once again the conflict between the Prequels and the OT is evident as they don't mesh at all. In this case, Spirit Ben would be deliberately misleading the audience as to how his own training took place. In ESB, Spirit Ben tells us that his only teacher was Yoda, but based on TPM and AOTC, we know that this isn't true.

Choice "c" is obviously what is onscreen. Qui Gon travels through TPM doing the things that Obi Wan says that he did (in the OT). Obi Wan essentially has nothing to do in The Phantom Menace except wait around until he can avenge "somebody's" death. That somebody is his own teacher who has just done all of the "history" that we came to believe was Obi Wan's.

Just as with the Midichlorian problem, Lucas sat down to write this story and was looking for simple solutions to his desires without thinking them through entirely.

[icatch9]

Riddle me this Batman...........

When Ben first tells Luke that Darth Vader killed his father we all believed it. Then we find out that Vader is Luke’s father. Some thought he was lying (James Earl Jones included), and others believed him. Then we find out for real that Ben was the one lying to Luke about his father. How come no one complains about that? I mean don't you think that GL could of changed his mind in the writing of Empire to make Vader Luke’s dad. So, he changed the original intent of Vader to make it more interesting. Then covered his tracks in Jedi by having Ben come clean to Luke.


You know why no one complains? It's because the OT is the holiest of all movies, and to say other wise is blasphemy. The PT (especially TPM) gets bashed time after time. Where as the OT is put on a pedestal so high that not even God can touch it. Realistically the OT is a great adventure, but it too has its flaws. Fan boys are all to blind to see them, but all to quick to point out every little thing that is wrong with the SE and the PT.

I like them all. Everything GL has done has been great. The additions and the subtractions are warranted. I cannot wait to see what he does with the DVD’s I hope he add so much stuff that it turns the movie inside out.

If you don’t' like the new stuff, then don't watch it. Every time a fan complains it kills the possibility of a new fan being born.

[icatch9]

There are holes in the story that we don't know. Luke does not learn much about the days of the Rebuplic or the prime of the Jedi. He doesn't learn about Mace, Yaddle, or even his mother who Obi Wan clearly knows. Luke is told what he needs to hear. Obi Wan tells the truth, Yoda did train him. As Yoda trained every Jedi ever. It is his job to train all the Jedi at on time or another. Just like the kindigarden teacher at a small school (everyone has her and everyone loves her). Ben didn't need to tell him stories of his days swashbuckling across the universe with Qui Gon, it wasn't needed. Luke needed to know that Yoda could train Luke now, he didn't need to know that Qui Gon trained Obi Wan too.

Your looking to point the finger at Lucas and tell him he wrote his story wrong. We'll I don't think you'd like someone telling you how to raise your kid, now would you? Same thing? You can't accuse or tell GL he's doing it wrong, because you don't know the whole story. He does. Case closed!

[stillakid]

Originally posted by icatch9
Riddle me this Batman...........

When Ben first tells Luke that Darth Vader killed his father we all believed it. Then we find out that Vader is Luke’s father. Some thought he was lying (James Earl Jones included), and others believed him. Then we find out for real that Ben was the one lying to Luke about his father. How come no one complains about that? I mean don't you think that GL could of changed his mind in the writing of Empire to make Vader Luke’s dad. So, he changed the original intent of Vader to make it more interesting. Then covered his tracks in Jedi by having Ben come clean to Luke.


You know why no one complains? It's because the OT is the holiest of all movies, and to say other wise is blasphemy. The PT (especially TPM) gets bashed time after time. Where as the OT is put on a pedestal so high that not even God can touch it. Realistically the OT is a great adventure, but it too has its flaws. Fan boys are all to blind to see them, but all to quick to point out every little thing that is wrong with the SE and the PT.

I like them all. Everything GL has done has been great. The additions and the subtractions are warranted. I cannot wait to see what he does with the DVD’s I hope he add so much stuff that it turns the movie inside out.

If you don’t' like the new stuff, then don't watch it. Every time a fan complains it kills the possibility of a new fan being born.

Case closed? Hardly. :)

This isn't Lucas bashing. This is looking at the original "intent" of the saga which was a galactic struggle. There were many elements to include in the telling of that story, including the Anakin downfall. But it wasn't the entire story nor was it meant to be.

The Prequels are not only rewriting the rules of the game, but changing the game itself! The OT is still in it's present form a bigger epic about a galactic struggle with many smaller elements helping to tell that larger story. The Prequels are focusing on one single element from the OT (the Anakin downfall) and trying to turn the entire saga into a story about that.

Therein lies the problem. So instead of resorting to insults upon those of us who take the time to look squarely at the issues for what they are, sit down and do a little thinking too.

[icatch9]

I am not insulting anyone. I do think a lot about this and can see that this issue will never be agreed upon.

By your last post it seems to me that you’re missing the big picture. It is Vader’s/ Anakin’s story. It always has been. Everything else is just in support of that story. It's not the galactic struggle, it's Anakin/Vader’s struggle. It's all about him, and George Lucas said that. . He said this in an interview before the Special Edition or the re-mastered THX version of the Trilogy (I cannot remember for sure).
So it has to be true. The rebellion, the clone wars, the pod race are all supporting elements to ad to Vader/Anakin’s rise and demise.

I still don't know what all that has to do with Qui Gon not being mentioned in the OT. The answer to that is simple I think. Just as simple as why wasn't Mace or Padme mentioned to Luke. Obi Wan knew who they were and he didn't tell him. Why isn’t' that a big deal?

My statement is clear and it answers everything that is in question. Ben told Luke only what he needed to know. Luke did not need to know about Ben’s old master that died 50 years ago no more than he needed to know what made the force work or whom Jar Jar was. Further more Ben lied about what happened to Anakin, so he could be lying to Luke when he says who trained him. From a certain point of view Yoda did train Ben, as did Mace, as did all the Jedi Masters. They all provided wisdom which is learning which is training.

It’s not like Ben and Luke where sitting around the fireplace trading war stories. Their time together was very limited as was their conversations. Plus, their minds and thoughts were on the present, not in the past on issues of unimportance’s.

I don’t know any of this for sure, but it all makes sense to me and that is what is important. You can view the movies in your own way and I’ll view it in mine. For my money it all makes perfect sense and I find very little inconsistencies that cannot be explained rationally.

[Jedi of the North]

Even with my previous post, I have to agree that there is a hole the story when it comes to who taught whom, but my statements before and those of icatch9, are for the most part, the way I think it works. Those holes are left for you to connect the dots, not everything has to said matter o'factly.
Ben's role in OT is a motivator and keeps the story moving along to the next level. A Jedi Master who instructed me is not nearly as convinving as The Jedi Master, and it makes Luke move on, as well as the story. There are many, many holes in the story that require you to make it work and everyone has their own unique way to put it together. I simply wanted to let everyone know why I think somethings are said and others left unsaid, at least in this case.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Jedi of the North
Even with my previous post, I have to agree that there is a hole the story when it comes to who taught whom, but my statements before and those of icatch9, are for the most part, the way I think it works. Those holes are left for you to connect the dots, not everything has to said matter o'factly.
Ben's role in OT is a motivator and keeps the story moving along to the next level. A Jedi Master who instructed me is not nearly as convinving as The Jedi Master, and it makes Luke move on, as well as the story. There are many, many holes in the story that require you to make it work and everyone has their own unique way to put it together. I simply wanted to let everyone know why I think somethings are said and others left unsaid, at least in this case.

Could you list every single one of those other holes in the story that you are speaking about? The one's requiring the audience to connect seemingly unrelated dots? :)

[scruffziller]

I wonder if old Georgie put that scene in with Yoda and the Younglings to support his argument just for this fact. And when the Archival editions come out they will probably change it to "A" Jedi who instructed me.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by scruffziller
I wonder if old Georgie put that scene in with Yoda and the Younglings to support his argument just for this fact. And when the Archival editions come out they will probably change it to "A" Jedi who instructed me.


According to most people here, those "little" problems aren't problems at all and everything fits together with a perfection unmatched in nature. So Lucas doesn't have to fix a single thing ever ever again. :) He is second only to God Himself and everything he does is intentional and perfect and beautiful. :) Far be it from any mortal to question anything he does.

Okay, so that's a silly generalization that I am fully aware is untrue for most posters here. :) But, dang, it's sure starting to feel like that's the growing mood.:rolleyes:

[icatch9]

Sarcasim aside it's partly true. How can he make an error when it's his movie. You have to realize he's written this movie, and seen it a million times (that's probally not an exageration either), he knows all the ins and outs of it. He knows all the holes and it's up to him how they fit together. He can make a mistake, but it's not likely. You only find a mistake if you look for one. Sometimes these are made up in your own mind. This is true of all sorts of situations, not just SW related.

Perhaps the PT hasn't gone in the direction that you wanted it to, and that is to bad considering you are a real fan. Never the less, this is the direction that has been set in motion since befor the movie came out. Look at the prolog of the Star Wars: A New Hope novelization. It outlines the story of TPM perfectly (and was published in 1976). So, these storylines that seem to disatisfy some people are the ones that have beent there since the beggining.

There are always going to be nay-sayers, but there are also going to be just as many people who support these films and everything GL does to the bitter end.

Such is life............

[Bel-Cam Jos]

I haven't read all the volumes typed in above (be brief for we short-attention span people please! ), so I'm sorry if this point's been made. Qui-Gon only trained Obi-Wan in a Master/Padawan relationship. Obi-Wan had the preliminary Jedi training already. Even if you don't read the EU stories, I think you've got to believe that aspect. So Yoda could easily have trained Kenobi.

[LTBasker]

Originally posted by stillakid
So Lucas doesn't have to fix a single thing ever ever again. :) He is second only to God Himself and everything he does is intentional and perfect and beautiful. :)

I dunno...

God - George. :D

[stillakid]

Originally posted by icatch9
Sarcasim aside it's partly true. How can he make an error when it's his movie. You have to realize he's written this movie, and seen it a million times (that's probally not an exageration either), he knows all the ins and outs of it. He knows all the holes and it's up to him how they fit together. He can make a mistake, but it's not likely. You only find a mistake if you look for one. Sometimes these are made up in your own mind. This is true of all sorts of situations, not just SW related.

Perhaps the PT hasn't gone in the direction that you wanted it to, and that is to bad considering you are a real fan. Never the less, this is the direction that has been set in motion since befor the movie came out. Look at the prolog of the Star Wars: A New Hope novelization. It outlines the story of TPM perfectly (and was published in 1976). So, these storylines that seem to disatisfy some people are the ones that have beent there since the beggining.

There are always going to be nay-sayers, but there are also going to be just as many people who support these films and everything GL does to the bitter end.

Such is life............

Funny you should mention the Prologue. :)

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=107694#post107694

[icatch9]

Yes yes, I see how you would assume that his original inten is tell the story of the galactic struggle. But this was the back story he wrote to go along with the characters he created. Mainly Darth Vader. Frankly the original intent didn't even have Darth Vader in it or Jedi at all. It was more about rescuing LIea with an old man and a goup of boys being the heros. Frankly I don't even know what we are argueing about anymore. I don't care. I hope you enjoy what Star Wars provides for you and your family.

[Tycho]

I got tired of reading this. It was the same argument that Stillakid brings up every single time: Qui-Gon (and the midi-chlorians).

I am sorry to post something negative, but its impact on me has been negative. I am tired of fighting about this issue that is not Stillakid's to decide - or his inherited purvue to make everyone agree with his opinion on this topic.

Stillakid, either

a) you find arguments the most intriguing aspect of being able to participate in forums: picking your controversial battles, and then baiting those (typically regulars like BigBarada, LTBasker, and myself) to debate you, and enjoying trying to "win these things."

or

b) You are Obi-Wan's greatest fan and some kind of zealous defender of his history and whatever YOUR personal vision and interpretation of the Force and the Original Trilogy is and nothing else can possibly be acceptable to you but the bear-bones outline of the prequels as identified in the OT. I strongly think Obi-Wan will have a new padawan in Episode 3 and Anakin will be through, having quit the Jedi Order, when the movie first starts. Since this padawan was never mentioned in the OT, I forsee you'll have a big problem with that.

Anakin Skywalker called Mace Windu his master "Yes Master" on the ship when told to stay put and protect the Senator. He could say "Mace Windu, the Jedi Master who instructed me" just like Obi-Wan described Yoda. He did not say "Yoda, the Jedi Master I was apprenticed to."

Also, FYI, Ki-Adi Mundi was also an apprentice of Yoda's. Presumably after Count Dooku.

But in either case, please explain to our listeners in psychiatric wards, why you keep making such a big case about this Qui-Gon issue? PLEASE.

[JediTricks]

I can't speak for him, but in my mind, it's still an issue because Lucas never REALLY convinced me otherwise. Hell, the first drafts of Episode I don't even have Qui-Gon Jinn in them, how am I supposed to accept that he was always meant to be another instructor of Obi-Wan Kenobi, especially with some of the lessons Yoda taught Luke being similar lessons to those we saw Obi-Wan learn from Qui-Gon.

Here's an even greater question, why is it that so many claim these arguments are something they don't want to continue reading and then claim that the arguments are "negative" to them and "hurt Star Wars" for everybody? I don't see how that's possible - if you don't want to read it, DON'T read it; if your enjoyment of Star Wars is predicated so strongly on either some faith in Lucas or by how others view it, if your faith in your viewpoints is so weak that any disagreement with them causes you to lash out, then perhaps it's not really Star Wars that you're enjoying. IMO, differing viewpoints should be discussed or ignored, but not attacked.

[Beast]

Originally posted by JediTricks
I can't speak for him, but in my mind, it's still an issue because Lucas never REALLY convinced me otherwise. Hell, the first drafts of Episode I don't even have Qui-Gon Jinn in them, how am I supposed to accept that he was always meant to be another instructor of Obi-Wan Kenobi, especially with some of the lessons Yoda taught Luke being similar lessons to those we saw Obi-Wan learn from Qui-Gon.
Well, since Count Dooku was a padawan learner to Yoda, and Count Dooku trained Qui-Gon Jinn, then of course there would be some similarity to the training and lessons that both teach. I am sure that the Jedi do have some guidelines to training, after all they have been around along time. It's just a continuation of the fact that alot of people can't stand the prequels so much, that they try to discredit them with silly arguments. Yes Yoda did instruct Obi-Wan kenobi, but Qui-Gon Jinn completed his training. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[stillakid]

Thanks for that, JT. :)

I keep bringing it up because I loath situations where something so wrong is accepted so easily. Clearly, I'm not going to convince any of the regulars who jump into the ring to prove me wrong time and time again, but for every denial that I'm confronted with, I have no choice but to respond so that it doesn't look like I've a)agreed with the "opposing viewpoint" and/or b) just given up. That's slightly psychotic on my part:crazed:. In my view, it's not an issue to decide to agree with or disagree with. It's not an "opinion" topic at all. It's just a fact. Choosing to see it that way is a matter of personal choice if a person wants to eek the details around enough to make it all appear to work out. After all, why believe in something if you don't think that it's true? :)

I don't bait anyone. I say what I have to say and have no control over the responses. I can't take responsiblity for how anyone else reacts. I can't recall the last time I actually began a thread that dealt with these topics. If I see a conclusion that doesn't make sense to me, I drop in my 2 cents. Unfortunately the "problematic" elements tend to hinge on the Qui Gon and Midchlorian aspects. A couple of the more recent examples deal with the question of revealing Vader in Ep III.

I look at the story as written and presented onscreen and make an evaluation based on that, not on my personal "favorites." But we've been through all of this before. :) No need to repeat myself...again.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

It's just a continuation of the fact that alot of people can't stand the prequels so much, that they try to discredit them with silly arguments. '

That's an incorrect conclusion based on illogical reasoning. "We" don't discredit the prequels because we don't like them....rather, we don't like them because of the topics of the "silly" arguments. Don't attack the messenger just because you don't want to hear the message.

[Beast]

I welcome hearing the message, and all of you do have some good ideas. But it's like many of you just ignore the whole ideas behind somthing, when someone posts a reasoning behind how what can be said in the OT, can fit in with the story of the prequels. That's like not seeing that Darth Vader is Luke's father, because it was said in ANH, that Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father. Or arguing that Luke and Leia can't be brother and sister, because ANH and Empire didn't offer that to the viewers. And, I note that you only pointed out, and commented on the actual complaint, and didn't comment on the actual post. It's like ignoring the topic, and the idea completly, like you can't even see that as a possibility.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
I welcome hearing the message, and all of you do have some good ideas. But it's like many of you just ignore the whole ideas behind somthing, when someone posts a reasoning behind how what can be said in the OT, can fit in with the story of the OT. That's like not seeing that Darth Vader is Luke's father, because it was said in ANH, that Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father. And, I not that you only pointed out, and commented on the actual complaint, and didn't comment on the actual post. It's like ignoring the topic, and the idea completly, like you can't even see that as a possibility.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


I'm sorry, I really want to understand what you're trying to say, but grammatically, some of it just isn't making much sense to me. Could you please rephrase and use a couple of specific examples so that your message is not misunderstood. For some odd reason, suddenly I am under direct attack on many sides merely because I point out unpopular viewpoints. It is critical that I not misread someone's intentions at this moment. Thank you.

[Beast]

I thought I explained it quite well, but I'll give it a go again. You love the OT, and you accept anything that is shown to you in the film 100%. But, then the prequels come about, and any small varience that can be found to attack them seems to be pointed out. Like the midiclorians, you have red blood cells that help deliver oxygen to your body, but do you have to be beaten over the head about it?

Everyone has midiclorians in the Star Wars universe, call it intuition or sixth sense, but if they arn't trained as a Jedi, then it is pretty useless anyway. Yoda and Ben no doubt know that Luke has a great deal of midiclorians so, why have to try to explain it to him. Jedi are thought of mystical beings, or nutcases thanks to their extermination, so why bother trying to scientifically explain things to Luke. That is one of the things, and I already explained the Yoda/Qui/Obi-Wan thing. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
I thought I explained it quite well, but I'll give it a go again. You love the OT, and you accept anything that is shown to you in the film 100%. But, then the prequels come about, and any small varience that can be found to attack them seems to be pointed out. Like the midiclorians, you have red blood cells that help deliver oxygen to your body, but do you have to be beaten over the head about it.

Everyone has midiclorians in the Star Wars universe, call it intuition or sixth sense, but if they arn't trained as a Jedi, then it is useless anyway. Yoda and Ben no doubt know that that Luke has a great deal of midiclorians so, why have to try to explain it to him. That is one of the things, and I already explained the Yoda/Qui/Obi-Wan thing. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


Thank you! That is much clearer to me now.

Don't misunderstand my intention here. I don't want to dislike the Prequels. It's not my fault that there are problems with it that take the form of consistency issues in relation to the OT. I use the OT as the baseline because a) it was made first, b) it has no consistency problems of any plot significance, and c) it was written and produced quite well.

I do not attack the Prequel's because I have nothing better to do. I attack them because they provoke scrutiny. The general feeling is that "we" are "prequel haters" and then go looking for problems to back that up. No. "We" see problems and thenbring up the issues. Why is that such a difficult concept to comprehend?

[Darth Sinister]

OK, here we go:

"But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future" say, Obi-Wan to Qui-Gon. Sounds like some instructing or words of wisdom to me.

And last but not least.......in case we all have forgotten....Yoda was the last living Jedi. The means, he is the only one who could fully train Luke. Now, given Obi-Wans ability to persuade Luke with his "certain points of view", this shouldn't be this big of a problem.

It is not stated that Yoda was his only trainer.....it was assumed by the audience. If Luke needs to be trained by someone...the choices are limited. Tell him what he needs to hear to get him to Dagobah.

In AOTC we see Yoda instructing young future Jedi......I am going to ((((ASSUME)))) he turns these young ones over to other Jedi Knights to fully train. Ben did not say Yoda trained him, he said he instructed him. Seems like Yoda did that for a lot of the Jedi order.

[Beast]

But if that is the fact, why not complain about the fact, and deny that Darth Vader is Luke's father then. Since that wasn't a part of the OT, until Empire. Why not complain that Luke and Leia can't be twins, because there is no information in ANH or ESB that this is so?

That's the only thing, nothing that has been revealed in the prequels, have changed anything in the OT. All they have done is tell us how those things came about. It just seems to really be a case of being picky, 9 times out of 10.

The OT has just as many plot problems, acting problems, and writing and dialogue problems. But you grew up loving it, back when the blockbuster movie wasn't somthing that was as big as Star Wars. Not to mention you were a kid, and didn't care as much about such things. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
But if that is the fact, why not complain about the fact, and deny that Darth Vader is Luke's father then. Since that wasn't a part of the OT, until Empire. Why not complain that Luke and Leia can't be twins, because there is no information in ANH or ESB that this is so?

That's the only thing, nothing that has been revealed in the prequels, have changed anything in the OT. All they have done is tell us how those things came about. It just seems to really be a case of being picky, 9 times out of 10.

The OT has just as many plot problems, acting problems, and writing and dialogue problems. But you grew up loving it, back when the blockbuster movie wasn't somthing that was as big as Star Wars. Not to mention you were a kid, and did'nt care as much. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


You know what, you're absolutely right! How could I be so blind all this time? Forgive my ignorance.

(now where's that "I give up" smilie?)

[Beast]

I'm not saying at all that you're ignorant. I'm just saying that it just seems that there is a massive ammount of negative attacks against the prequels, just because little things don't seem to jive between the two trilogies. But then almost no complaints about small things that don't jive in the OT between chapters. I don't think there is anyway at all, that Lucas could offer you somthing you could be happy with, because of the difference in your age, and who you are, since you fell in love with the OT. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
I'm not saying at all that you're ignorant. I'm just saying that it just seems that there is a massive ammount of negative attacks against the prequels, just because little things don't seem to jive between the two trilogies. But then almost no complaints about small things that don't jive in the OT between chapters. I don't think there is anyway at all, that Lucas could offer you somthing you could be happy with, because of the difference in your age, and who you are, since you fell in love with the OT. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Against my better judgment, I'll go out on a limb once again and ask what all of those inconsistencies were between Episodes IV, V, and VI. Inconsistencies so aggregious as to cause severe plot questions. (I say again because the last time I asked this there was absolutely no response. I apologize but I don't remember which thread it was in). There are numerous "coincidences" but no major inconsistencies that I can think of. I'd be most anxious to see that long list. Thank you.:)

[Beast]

I don't pick apart any of the movies, so I am not the perfect person to note the problems of the OT. I'll list some, I am sure that Tycho or someone else can come up with more. And I know that alot of these are really nitpicking, becauser I am trying to prove a point. Anyone can turn any minor lil plot hole, into an attack against the movies.

Obi-Wan tells Luke, that his father was betrayed and murdered by a man named Darth Vader. Of course, come ESB and ROTJ, this is proven not so.

There is no info dropped that Leia and Luke are related, infact it seems that the thought of that is highly improbible. Yet, the revelation is dropped in ROTJ, that she is his sister, even though there is no evidence of this in the previous films.

Obi-Wan does some minor training of Luke, with a lightsaber and a seeker ball. Nothing that would help him actually learn to use and hone his abilities. Yet, in ESB he can call a lightsaber to his hand, even though there is no evidence of him being trained in that? Of course, that can be explained in two ways. 1. Luke was of course struggling to get free, and it just happened. 2. Or, like Obi-Wan said in ANH, that the force can partially control your actions, Luke's high numbers of midiclorians allowed the force to guide him twords what he had to do to get free. That's why he's not suprised that the saber leaped into his hand.

Luke, with absolutly no military training what so ever in ANH, suddenly has aquired the rank of Commander in Empire Strikes Back? I am sure that some people that put years of service in, would be a little miffed at that. Let's not even examine the fact that Han and Lando end up with General commisions?

C-3PO and R2-D2 both are members of the Rebel Allience, and the House of Alderaan's droids. Yet, somehow Luke Skywalker seems to end up with ownership of R2-D2? Sure, that can be explained that R2-D2 and Luke did so well in ANH as a pilot pair, that they were assigned together after that.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[Beast]

Again, don't take it personal Stillikid. I'm pointing out really silly things to complain about in the OT, just to prove a point. I would like to actually see a list of everything that you don't like about the prequels, then I can see where you are coming from and offer an alternate way of looking at them.

I'm just making the point that people can find things to nitpick about, if they wanna prove to themselves that the prequels suck in comparison to the OT. Just like puppets and masks can look really bad on screen in the OT, yet get ignored most of the time. But the minute that CGI looks bad it becomes a case of ruining your childhood, and destroying the OT. The same examples can be brought up for writing, acting, and sets. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[Darth Sinister]

How many pilots made it back from the Battle of Yavin? I think the alliance was lacking in skilled pilots. The Alliance is made up of Rebels....they take people who are willing to fight for their cause. Thus, the best lead.....Luke was one of if not the best. As for Han and Lando being Generals.........uh, that's a good one. The only thing I can think of was that Han volunteered for the Endor mission and was given a field commanders rank of General. Lando should not have been a General...he had not proven his skills as a pilot.

The Droids may have been returned to Alderaan but that became impossible in ANH. As such, they should have been turned over to Leia....which appears 3PO was. R2 was only with Luke when he was flying the X-wing.....Yavin, Dagobah, Bespin...all other times were also in the presence of Leia

[stillakid]

Thank you for the prompt response! :) Of the following, none are contradictions from one film to the next:

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Obi-Wan tells Luke, that his father was betrayed and murdered by a man named Darth Vader. Of course, come ESB and ROTJ, this is proven not so.

Obi Wan told Luke that information in that way specifically to not emotionally burden Luke with the idea that the "body" of his father is still alive and walking around somewhere (Luke isn't ready to deal with the concept of "death of personality" as Obi Wan believes of Anakin's state of mind). This wasn't a "lie" as so many people want to believe, but rather the truth as Old Ben really sees it. To him, Anakin was betrayed and murdered by an alternate personality who took over his being. Certainly not a conflict at all and even if you don't believe that, in ROTJ there is an "out" for why Old Ben said it that way.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

There is no info dropped that Leia and Luke are related, infact it seems that the thought of that is highly improbible. Yet, the revelation is dropped in ROTJ, that she is his sister, even though there is no evidence of this in the previous films.

It's not improbable in the least. Convenient maybe, but quite rational and not a bit contradictory in any respect. If you're looking for foreshadowing of the relationship to prove that it is a logical addition, that is another question. Foreshadowing of any new element isn't a requirement to make it an acceptable addition to a story. Again, not a contradiction in the slightest.

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Obi-Wan does some minor training of Luke, with a lightsaber and a seeker ball. Nothing that would help him actually learn to use and hone his abilities. Yet, in ESB he can call a lightsaber to his hand, even though there is no evidence of him being trained in that? Of course, that can be explained in two ways. 1. Luke was of course struggling to get free, and it just happened. 2. Or, like Obi-Wan said in ANH, that the force can partially control your actions, Luke's high numbers of midiclorians allowed the force to guide him twords what he had to do to get free. That's why he's not suprised that the saber leaped into his hand.

Or choice C, that in the few years between ANH and ESB, Luke did a little practicing on his own. This would account for his slightly advanced abilities and is entirely logical. What would be illogical is if he didn't practice on his own after Old Ben died. This would also explain the lack of physical training (lightsaber and otherwise) that Luke goes through on Dagobah in exchange for the more "mental" lessons that Yoda puts him through. Luke has a tentative idea on how to manipulate the Force, but he must learn the emotional control to properly hone his shaky skills.

Once again, not a contradiction.

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Luke, with absolutly no military training what so ever in ANH, suddenly has aquired the rank of Commander in Empire Strikes Back? I am sure that some people that put years of service in, would be a little miffed at that. Let's not even examine the fact that Han and Lando end up with General commisions?

Strange maybe if you're a military afficienado, but certainly not a contradictory problem in terms of the plot. :confused:

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

C-3PO and R2-D2 both are members of the Rebel Allience, and the House of Alderaan's droids. Yet, somehow Luke Skywalker seems to end up with ownership of R2-D2? Sure, that can be explained that R2-D2 and Luke did so well in ANH as a pilot pair, that they were assigned together after that.

Uh, convenience? I don't know, but it sure isn't a contradiction between films or anything. I suppose it's a minor question just like why Anakin and Padme take C-3PO with them in AOTC without even telling the Lar's family goodbye or anything. It's not so much a contradiction as just bad manners.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Again, don't take it personal Stillikid. I'm pointing out really silly things to complain about in the OT, just to prove a point. I would like to actually see a list of everything that you don't like about the prequels, then I can see where you are coming from and offer an alternate way of looking at them.

I'd love to offer you a list, but Tycho is sick and tired of hearing about them. You'll have to ask for permission for me to continue any farther. :)

If you don't wish to wait, my views are scattered across the forums. Thanks for asking. :)

Originally posted by Darth Sinister

How many pilots made it back from the Battle of Yavin? I think the alliance was lacking in skilled pilots. The Alliance is made up of Rebels....they take people who are willing to fight for their cause. Thus, the best lead.....Luke was one of if not the best. As for Han and Lando being Generals.........uh, that's a good one. The only thing I can think of was that Han volunteered for the Endor mission and was given a field commanders rank of General. Lando should not have been a General...he had not proven his skills as a pilot.

Perhaps in this galaxy far far away, they award rank very different than we mere mortal humans on Earth do. Afterall, they're not human, they have Midichlorians in their bloodstream, so ANYTHING is now possible. Maybe the new guys in this galaxy far far away get the high ranks and get demoted as time goes on and they get older. Who knows? :rolleyes: But the bestowing of seemingly unearned ranks doesn't appear to be the cause of any contradictions as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by Darth Sinister

The Droids may have been returned to Alderaan but that became impossible in ANH. As such, they should have been turned over to Leia....which appears 3PO was. R2 was only with Luke when he was flying the X-wing.....Yavin, Dagobah, Bespin...all other times were also in the presence of Leia

There's no way to know for sure if Leia actually had some kind of ownership of R2 or if he just happened to be conveniently on board the Tantive. Toss that in with Old Ben's not taking ownership of R2 (which thus far isn't a lie as R2 and Obi Wan in AOTC or TPM aren't joined by ownership) and Luke is free to own the little guy. But R2 is one of the heroes and they all stick together and stuff. There's nothing illogical about any of that as far as I can tell.

[Beast]

Thanks Stillikid, but Tycho can ignore the thread if he doesn't wanna deal with them. I'm willing to discuss this with you, and maybe offer some viewpoints that could make you appreciate the prequels just as much as you do the OT. See, you have perfectly acceptable ways to deal with those bits in the OT, just like there are perfectly acceptible things that can fit the Prequels in with the Originals.

Like I brought up before, the midiclorian issue. The same way that Ben doesn't bother to explain what really happens to Anakin, can be used for why he doesn't bring up midiclorians. They exist in Luke in high numbers, and therefore he's a good candidate to be trained, why confuse the poor kid more by making it a science lesson. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[Tycho]

I was at a conference as part of my duties for my job. All this discussion happened while I was gone.

As to it bothering me? I have to admit I'm sucked in again. But JarJar and Darth Sinister are making points I would have and doing quite well at it. I'll speak up more when I can contribute something more to the discussion. But I am reading it.

Maybe we can "cure" Stillakid, LOL.

I do want to respond to something JediTricks said, but so much has happened in this discussion, that I have to go and look for it.

So I am reading, and I will be back.

Keep going boys. You're doing fine without me for now.

[JediTricks]

Midichlorians do not exist in my view of the Star Wars universe, PERIOD. Until Lucas makes them solid as a rock in Ep 3, they can just be explained away in my mind as "Qui-Gon was wrong". In fact, a large number of the things in Ep 1 can be explained that way. (Of course, I have also started to adopt the theory that Qui-Gon was Anakin's father in a vein attempt to fulfill the prophecy.)

But this midichlorian thing works better and even has some back up on the official site, so pardon me while I build a theory on why Obi-Wan wouldn't mention Qui-Gon or Midichlorians to Luke (beyond the facts that neither existed until 20 years after the first Star Wars film was born).

My belief is that midis are not symbionts that help one communicate with the Force, rather their numbers are a byproduct of having the Force, like a high white bloodcell count is a byproduct of having an infection.

Qui-Gon Jinn was wrong about that, and he may have been wrong about "The Living Force", this is where the official site comes in: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/index.html
"A strong-minded man, Dooku's ideas were often out of step with those of the Jedi Council... His challenging views were often echoed by his former Padawan, Qui-Gon Jinn..."
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/eu.html
"Dooku had studied the ways of the Force for almost eight decades, becoming one of its most powerful practitioners, though his ultimate loyalty was not to the structured protocols of the Jedi order, but rather to his own intuitions and ideals."
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/quigonjinn/
"Qui-Gon Jinn is a student of the living Force. Unlike other Jedi Masters, who often lose themself in the meditation of the unifying Force, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for the moment, espousing a philosophy of "feel, don't think -- use your instincts." Were it not for Qui-Gon's unruly views, he would have undoubtedly been on the Jedi Council."

If Qui-Gon is proven to be wrong about the Living Force -and- about Midichlorians in the eyes of Obi-Wan, then perhaps he would cast off the teachings that Qui-Gon gave him as his padawan master. This would leave only one true Jedi teacher in his life, Yoda.

Sure it's a bit thin right now, but when the prequels are done, this is how I will see it. It's a huge juggling act all to clean up what I perceive as mistakes that Lucas made, but it'll be my way of plodding through the least-necessary film in the saga.

[Tycho]

JediTricks made some good points and reasoned them out well.

I still disagree with him, but his arguments are more logical than any I've read from his POV from either JT himself, or others expousing these opinions before.

Nicely done! But I still don't agree with it. JT has just written it well and backed it up with official information that pertains to SW and that makes his arguments merit consideration.

We'll finally, really know in 2005. Until then, I doubt any of us who are strongly in one position or another will change their point of views.

But again JT, nicely done.

[Beast]

Agreed, well done. JT actually took somthing he didn't like about E1, and actually took the time to explain why it isn't mentioned in the OT. I don't agree with him either on this, but it's nice to see that he's trying to think out some ways that somthing he didn't like in the prequels can work.

Only reason I have to disagree, is the fact that Yoda also talks about Midiclorians. And he doesn't chastize Qui-Gon for his beliefs about the midiclorians in E1 either. It's just not somthing that needs to ever be brought up in the OT, because Obi-Wan and Yoda already know that Luke is strong in the force. But again, nice job. Definatly an A+ for effort. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[icatch9]

I chimed in this forum a while ago, before the big boys showed up. I resisted stillakids opinion too. That is not important. As Tycho said none of us will know until 2005. It is fun to discuss, but circles are everywhere in this argument.

All I have to say is that George is doing this on purpose. He's not going to forget something. He's seen these movies more than all of us combined. He is going to tie up all-important loose ends. We'll know about disappearing Jedi, midicloriants, and what ever happened to Qui Gon. These are things that he wrote in for a reason and thus he must have a plan for.

You’re never going to convince each other of the others views. I know it is fun to discuss, but you may as well discuss what Sebulba should have done to win the race.

There is a serious issue with OT fan boys loving it to no end, and intern hating the PT. There are some physiological issues to be dealt with there. How one can love a movie so much that they see it blindly is amazing.

Good luck to you all. I hope this has a happy ending. :)

[LTBasker]

I know what happened to Qui-Gon!!! He is now a tester for all the ash tray companies. :D

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Tycho
JediTricks made some good points and reasoned them out well.

I still disagree with him, but his arguments are more logical than any I've read from his POV from either JT himself, or others expousing these opinions before.

Nicely done! But I still don't agree with it. JT has just written it well and backed it up with official information that pertains to SW and that makes his arguments merit consideration.

We'll finally, really know in 2005. Until then, I doubt any of us who are strongly in one position or another will change their point of views.

But again JT, nicely done.


It was a nicely done argument. However, all of mine have been based on the movies themselves. Does this mean that the movies are now NOT official and credible or reliable sources to draw conclusions from? If that is not the intent of your praise for JT and the outright dismissal of my arguments, then your statements need some clearing up.

Every contradiction I've mentioned is backed up in black and white in the screenplays, on celluloid on the big screen, or on your television at home in plain English (or translated in a multitude of languages across the globe).

I just don't get it.:confused:

[2-1B]

If you guys are hoping for midichlorian references in Episode III, I don't think you'll get them ;) . . . I think he threw them into TPM as some sort of biological grounding of the Force, and the next 5 movies will go from there. I find it highly unlikely that we would hear nothing about midichlorians in AOTC and then come back to them in Episode III. We can ask "why aren't they in the OT?" but then we can also ask "why aren't they in ALL of the PT?" If all three prequel films were swimming in midichlorian references, only to have NONE of it in the OT, then I think the argument that they contradict is much more validated.

If you'll forgive the cut and paste, this is my current view on the midichlorians, I posted it in the heated "purist" thread. But I present it here for the consideration / evaluation of anyone who may not visit Gen Disc:

"I watched the commentary on TPM recently, and Lucas' comments on the midichlorians do hint at revisionism to me . . . but fundamentally I don't think he's contradicted himself. He does conveniently wax about how they were "always" intended and are hinted at in ANH but he never had time to fully explore the issues of the origin of the Force.
Yet, I do see some compelling evidence in the OT that the Force is hereditary and biologically influenced. Ben said that the Emperor knew (as Ben did) if Anakin had any children they would be a threat. Why would they be an automatic threat unless Anakin's potential had been passed on to them? - heredity.
Luke tells Leia "the Force is strong in my family" - heredity.
Vader says about Luke, "the Force is strong with this one" - I see the argument that Luke was now open to the ways of the Force, so that's how he could have triggered Vader's interest. But I always think of it with the knowledge that Vader is Luke's father, and that's where he gets his potential - heredity.
By itself, ANH does convey the idea that "Anyone" can access the Force, but the rest of the OT trilogy opens that up and suggests heredity in the case of the Skywalkers. It's not a matter of the "haves vs. the have nots", rather it's a matter of the "haves vs. the have mores". Everyone including Han, Chewie, Lando, Luke, have midichlorians . . . only Luke has more and is naturally more gifted.
Whew, that being said I can tell you that my personal preference would have been to leave Ani's Force potential in TPM as just being really obvious to Qui-Gon and leave it at that . . . but I can see how the midichlorians work in the storyline and I honestly don't think I am "rationalizing" it away."





Okay, I'm back from rereading my post and I have a new thought - if Jedi don't marry and raise families, heredity is obviously not the ONLY means of being force sensitive . . . . what do you think? Is it just a random thing? It has to be, IMO, and Anakin' conception is the fullest manifestation of it.
So when I speak about heredity in that quote, I do so only as it relates to Luke. I have no idea on Obi-Wan's "force facts" lineage :D

[Tycho]

I think Jedi don't marry and have children because it raises too many ethical issues:

1) first, the continued breeding of Force-sensitives would 'naturally select' more and more people with high predisposition for control of the Force as their dominant genetic makeup, thus creating new Jedi more powerful than the experienced ones instructing the newer generations. This could make the youngsters a potentially dangerous threat. Especially if Jedi mated with other Jedi.

2) emotional attachments could be highly unpredictable as Anakin's need for vengeance, or justice administered on a personal level (for his mother and predicatably for the 'death' of his wife and unborn child). Thus marriage and offspring would distract a Jedi from their pledge of allegiance to serving the Republic without passion or prejudice. Obi-Wan's attachment to Qui-Gon was evident when he tried to avenge him by relentless attacking Maul to the point of recklessness (forgetting Maul could call upon the Force inspite of Obi-Wan being an even better swordsman). But to strike Maul down in vengeance would betray everything Qui-Gon taught him. I'm sure it is the hope of Jedi instructors that their charges obey their orders and lessons they've taught. Obi-Wan seems to remember one of them when he thinks of his master, then remembers that Qui-Gon's lightsaber remained as an available weapon to call upon the Force to use against his enemy, and that in self-defense.

3) Jedi offspring would most likely be Force-sensitive and need to be trained as well. Their parents might have inappropriately high expectations or unobjective concerns for their children's training. If they wouldn't insist on being their child's master themselves, they would undoubtedly interfere with their child's training, or at the least, bug the heck out of their child's master.

4) I think the Jedi 'discovery and adoption process' is more or less a service they provide to collect 'freaks and mutations' getting more and more common in the gene pool of all life in that galaxy as the millennia go on. I liken it directly to "Mutant High" of the X-Men Legend that Professor Xavier established for 'gifted children' so that they don't become persecuted or outcasts that join Magneto and use their powers for evil. The Jedi thus found themselves in the role of galactic policemen, because I'm sure some children go unidentified, and when some kid in school is causing children who pick on him to spontaneously combust or something, only a Jedi is actually capable of stopping him. In that sense, they're like the SWAT team, and the Sith are like organized crime versus the random killer with Force powers who is unaffiliated. However, in their service the Jedi mostly handle ordinary disputes that are better handled by beings with their resources and capabilities. So if you're born Force-sensitive, you almost would not have a choice: you'd either be a Jedi, or you'd have to be a good person. Any kind of Force-utilizing criminal activity, and you'd be meeting a Jedi anyway.


As to Stillakid's concerns, I will address them shortly. I have something I must do for work right now.

[JediTricks]

I'm flattered you guys liked my arguments about the midis and the lack of mention of Qui-Gon Jinn in the OT, even if you don't agree with them.

by JJB
"Only reason I have to disagree, is the fact that Yoda also talks about Midiclorians. And he doesn't chastize Qui-Gon for his beliefs about the midiclorians in E1 either. It's just not somthing that needs to ever be brought up in the OT, because Obi-Wan and Yoda already know that Luke is strong in the force. But again, nice job. Definatly an A+ for effort."
I don't see anything of Yoda talking about midis, Yoda says to (chastizes) Qui-Gon about the presumption over his belief about the prophecy, "revealed, your opinion is." After that, Yoda goes on with a bit of a condescending attitude and slight disbelief with "Oh, trained as a Jedi, you request for him, hmm?" and when Qui-Gon claims that "Finding him was the will of the Force, I have no doubt of that" we see Ki-Adi-Mundi, then Yoda, then Mace Windu all roll their eyes and look to their left, before the scene ends with Mace sighing, shaking his head, saying in a disapproving way "Bring him before us, then" and when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan leave the room, Mace and Yoda share a seemingly-displeased glance.

Later, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon exchange dialogue where Obi-Wan shows that Qui-Gon has repeatedly defied the Jedi Council and Qui-Gon's response is "I shall do what I must."

Then we see the testing of Anakin, but nowhere does Yoda say anything about the midis.

A couple scenes later, we see Anakin, Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan stand before the council where we're told that the Force is strong with Ani, but he's not to be trained. When Qui-Gon says "He IS the chosen one, you MUST see this!", Yoda responds "Clouded this boy's future is". When Qui-Gon suggests that Obi-Wan is ready for the trials even though he is headstrong and "has much to learn of the living Force", Yoda's response is "young Skywalker's fate will be decided later."

At every turn, Yoda simply evades the issues of the Living Force and Midichlorians.

[Beast]

Yoda doesn't chastize Qui-Gon for the thought that Anakin was conceived by the Midiclorians though. So, Yoda obviously believed in them, and what they could possibly do. The only thing he chastizes him about, was about the fact that he seems to rush to judgement.

Yoda: Master Qui-Gon. More to say, have you?
Qui-Gon: With your permission, my master, I have encountered a vergence in the force.
Yoda: A vergence, you say?
Mace: Located around a person?
Qui-Gon: A boy. His cells have the highest concentration of midi-chlorians I have seen in a life-form. It is possible that he was concieved by the midi-chlorians
Mace: You refer to the prophecy of the one that will bring balance to the force. You believe it's this boy?
Qui-Gon: I don't presume to--
Yoda: But you do. Revealed your opinion is.
Qui-Gon: I request the boy be tested, Master.
Yoda: Oh? Trained as a Jedi, you request for him, hmm?
Qui-Gon: Finding him was the will of the Force. I have no doubt of that.
Mace: [sighs]Bring him before us, then.

And Yoda obviously mentioned midi-chlorians to Anakin as well, sometime during Anakin's testing. Because on the landing platform heading back to Naboo Anakin asks Qui-Gon what they are. Which leads into Qui-Gon's explanation.

Anakin: I heard Yoda talking about midi-chlorians. I've been wondering-- What are midi-chlorians?

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[JediTricks]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Yoda doesn't chastize Qui-Gon for the thought that Anakin was conceived by the Midiclorians though. So, Yoda obviously believed in them, and what they could possibly do. The only thing he chastizes him about, was about the fact that he seems to rush to judgement.
Whoa whoa whoa, someone DOESN'T verbally contradict a person so that "obviously" means he believes the same thing? That doesn't fit for me, just because I didn't respond to icatch9's comment about Lucas doing this on purpose doesn't mean I agree with that statement. Just because Nostradamus makes a prophecy doesn't mean I have to argue with it to disbelieve it. Mace is the one who answers that "midi-chlorians are his father" thing, and he doesn't terribly convinced either, it sounded to me like he's referring to a legend, not a stated fact; however IMO what none of us can state with any certainty or proof is that Yoda believes in the midi-chlorians at all, merely that he didn't say anything when the issue was brought up and Anakin claims he heard Yoda talking about them.

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
And Yoda obviously mentioned midi-chlorians to Anakin as well, sometime during Anakin's testing. Because on the landing platform heading back to Naboo Anakin asks Qui-Gon what they are. Which leads into Qui-Gon's explanation.

Anakin: I heard Yoda talking about midi-chlorians. I've been wondering-- What are midi-chlorians? Again, how do you see that he "obviously" mentioned it "to" Anakin? That seems like a mighty big assumption, for all we know, Yoda could have been saying to Mace "Believe Qui-Gon's midi-chlorian theory, I cannot" or "If midi-chlorians are with him, perhaps he is a threat to us all" or something else. In any event, I don't see a definite there.

---

stilla, my arguments were from the films themselves, I just backed them up with info from SW.com. My theories cannot yet be disproved by the films and haven't used any EU as direct basis (though some conjecture, but the fun part is, unless Ep 3 proves otherwise, that can NEVER be taken away from me ;)).

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Again, don't take it personal Stillikid. I'm pointing out really silly things to complain about in the OT, just to prove a point. I would like to actually see a list of everything that you don't like about the prequels, then I can see where you are coming from and offer an alternate way of looking at them.


Ok, here it goes. I'm going to try to reconstruct the highlights of my objections here, but again, I have details scattered across a myriad of threads, so I may forget to include some detail and will have to later "explain" it. So please bear with me.

Objection #1: The existence of Qui Gon Jinn

1) We are led to specifically believe in the OT that Obi Wan Kenobi was trained by Yoda. We are also led to specifically believe in the OT that a young and inexperienced Obi Wan Kenobi, thinking himself to be able to handle the training of a new recruit, took it upon himself to train Anakin without a suggestion from anyone else. We are also led to believe in the OT that Obi Wan was the one person who actually found Anakin, realized his potential, and decided that he should be trained.

Episode I contradicts every one of those ideas by introducing the character of Qui Gon Jinn.

I can go into specifics about why this is positively true, but the last time I did, I backed my "opponent" into a corner and it came down to the annunciation of a single word in the ESB. That word in question was "the" as in "You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." Naturally, a further discussion ensued as to the flexibility of the English language and how there was enough "wiggle room" to allow for multiple teachers in Obi Wan's past.

I still maintain that a) Qui Gonn wasn't invented until long after the OT was completed, and b) the original intention was to have Obi Wan be the sole discoverer and "decider" to train Anakin.

The way I see it, the only reason to give Obi Wan a Master at all in Ep I was so that the villain (Maul) would have someone significant to kill. That then allows Obi Wan the opportunity to climactically avenge somebody's death for drama's sake. The entire rest of the movie (TPM), Obi Wan literally has nothing to do and is left sitting in the wings twiddleing his thumbs until Qui Gonn bites it.

Without calling upon the time-honored "wiggle room," or as Einstein labeled his own gray area, the "cosmological constant," as the OT and the Prequels stand at present, there isn't any way to marry the two without creating a problem. Now, if JT's theory comes to pass, and GL deals with Qui Gon in Ep III in such a way as to include him in Palpatine's plot in a highly significant manner, then we'll talk some more. :)


Objection #2: The introduction of Midichlorians

First, is this cause a contradiction of the plot between the Prequels (Episode I, really, since GL left any reference to them at all out of Ep II) and the OT? No. It does not appear to contradict the plotline in the way that the Qui Gon question did. So what's the problem?

Here it is in a nutshell:

I've always maintained that the Midi's are contradictory to the original intent of Luke's motivation as it was written in the OT. In several interviews, Lucas describes saga in a way like this:

George Lucas, the Creative Impulse, page 45
The story is really an action adventure, a fantasy hero's journey. It's aimed primarily at teenagers, the same audience as American Graffiti."

Now, you could take from that a sense that the saga is about Luke and his journey. In fact, the sub-title of the novelization is From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker. But as Joseph Campbell points out in an interview that took place at Skywalker Ranch:

Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth, by Bill Moyers, page xiv
Campbell had lamented on other occasions our failure "to admit within ourselves the carniverous, lecherous fever" that is endemic to human nature. Now he was describing the hero's journey not as a courageous act but as a life lived in self-discovery, "and Luke Skywalker was never more rational than when he found within himself the resources of character to meet his destiny."


Specifically what this leads to is an understanding that we, and according to Lucas above, teenagers specifically, are meant to identify with Luke in such a way as to empathize with his situation and perhaps, as in the tradition of myth, find inspiration for our own lives. So the motivation to keep a hero of any story relatively familiar to the audience is profound.

Introducing a profound "specialness" like a symbiotic organism into the bloodstream of our hero, Luke, goes beyond the extra potential that mortal humans carry with them to be better at some things more than others. For example, sports or artistic ability aren't dependent upon any external sources of "power," rather internal genetic variances between individuals. Now that Luke has been altered into a kind of "superhuman" or not a human at all, it becomes more difficult for ordinary people to empathize with not only the primary hero, but everyone else in the story.

I've been accused in the past of wanting to be Luke Skywalker :rolleyes:. How silly. That seems like a last ditch effort to attack the messenger when the message makes too much sense. My argument here regarding Midichlorians has nothing at all to do with me personally. It is based on the contemporary view on how a hero figure in a fictional tale is written. Did Alex Rogan (The Last Starfighter) need Midichlorians? Did John McClane (Die Hard) need Midichlorians? Did Jack Traven (Speed) need Midichlorians? Did John Book (Witness) need Midichlorians? No. It was the strength of their character that helped them triumph over adversity, not silly magic crystals or symbiotic beings.

______________

Those two items are my main objections to TPM. There are other, concerns, but have more to do with plain ol' poor storytelling technique than any kind of actual contradictory element.

Just a couple of examples:

Poor pacing and plot structure, particularly in the Tatooine sequence. The goal is for the heroes to find a "part" which will allow them to continue their journey. The solution is extremely convoluted as to remind us of the late great Rube Goldberg (http://www.rubegoldberg.com). Yes, they find the missing piece of the puzzle that will allow them to continue on their way, but it didn't have to be so complicated. The way that it is done is long, drawn out, and boring. The entire sequence could have easily been "tightened" up by simply rearranging the order of events that Lucas wanted to utilize.

Another annoyance is the presentation of Darth Maul in the final battle. When those doors open and this strange character is standing on the other side, there is no reason in the world why the Naboo soldiers wouldn't have opened fire on him. What we see is everyone standing around looking very confused. The intent of Lucas was to be "dramatic" so that he could include what filmmakers call a "beauty shot" of Maul's blades igniting. Purely a gratuitious moment in order to show off the fx, ironically something that Lucas claims to be against. A better rendition of that scene would have had the doors open, Maul standing there waiting, the soldiers instantly firing a gazillion bolts at him, Maul deflecting the shots, then leaping through the air to dispatch some of the soldiers, then the Jedi going in for the kill, only for one of them to be surprised at the sudden appearance of the second blade as it ignites just inches from his face. That makes more dramatic sense and more effectively introduces the unique double-bladed saber into the story.

The "introduction of R2 D2." Blow the trumpets as his name is announced. I'd be hard pressed to find a more forced scene to introduce a character. The entire scene is written quite awkwardly, particularly the Queen's dialogue when she "commends" the droid. This was a very gratuitous sequence constructed for no other reason than to stir the nostaligic blood of long time fans.

AOTC: The use of the Swiss Family Fett
In the latest issue of The Insider, Lucas himself admits to using the Fett characters only because Boba had become such a fan favorite over the years. In my opinion, and in the opinions of many other fans and friends I've talked to over the years, Boba Fett was cool precisely because he was a mysterious character with a shadowed past. He came into the story (ESB) exactly when needed, not a moment too soon or too late. Going back into his past ruins that cool mysterious nature and diminishes that which made him so interesting in the first place. While he indeed has a past, it is better left to be explored in the world of the Expanded Universe rather than become a major part of the onscreen plot.

That's a quick rundown and summary of some of the topics that I've discussed in the past few months as you've asked for. I may have left some out as well as some pertinent details that back up my assertions. I'm sure that I'll hear all about it. :)

[Beast]

1. Obi-Wan in the OT, only ever says that he was instructed by Yoda. The Prequel trilogy shows that this is so, Yoda trains all the younglings up until they are 7 or 8 and then they are taken as a padawan learner by a Jedi Master. Obi-Wan was instructed by Yoda, but completed his Jedi apprenticeship under Qui-Gon Jinn. Qui-Gon is dead by the time ghost ben has to send Luke to finish his training, so why bring up a dead Jedi Master that is useless, when Yoda is alive and can train Luke. :)
2. Everyone in the Star Wars Universe has midi-chlorians. You could have as much as Anakin did, but if you are never discovered and trained, all it gives you is a sort of sixth sense about things. The training is the big deal. Since Midi-chlorians seem to not be unique to any species, just like red blood cells arn't unique to just humans. Having a large ammount just means you have a higher potential to be a force user.

3. I doubt that these Naboo soldiers have ever seen a Sith Lord before. Plus it's obvious that Maul doesn't care about the Naboo or the Queen to attack them. Padme could have ordered them to open fire on him, but Qui-Gon says that they will handle it, and she chooses that since he seems to know best, takes the advice and leads her men off on an alternate route to the Viceroy. Maul was only there to deal with the Jedi, so that's why he just waited for them to step up. :)

4. R2-D2's introduction is fine. He's a matinence droid for a Starfighter/Starship. Where do you think he is going to come from? Through the entire OT R2-D2 saves the day in each movie. Without him there would be no rebel allience, and the Death Star never would have been destroyed. What is wrong with R2-D2 being heroic and saving the day in E1? Where did the Queen command R2-D2? She commands Padme to clean R2-D2? Doesn't he deserve a little attention for saving the day. Especially since the Naboo love everything clean and beautiful.

5. I like how Lucas decided to expand Boba's past. So many people for ages have wanted to know his story, and Lucas was kind enough to give it to us. We know from Empire that Vader atleast knows of Boba's reputation, even warning him..."No Disintigrations". Plus we haven't seen how Boba's story plays out in Episode III yet. It's better then the 3-4 different backstories that EU has given him. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[JediTricks]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
1. Obi-Wan in the OT, only ever says that he was instructed by Yoda. The Prequel trilogy shows that this is so, Yoda trains all the younglings up until they are 7 or 8 and then they are taken as a padawan learner by a Jedi Master. Obi-Wan was instructed by Yoda, but completed his Jedi apprenticeship under Qui-Gon Jinn. Qui-Gon is dead by the time ghost ben has to send Luke to finish his training, so why bring up a dead Jedi Master that is useless, when Yoda is alive and can train Luke. :)
- Tut tut tut, in the OT, Obi-Wan also states:

"I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda." - Obi-Wan's spirit, ROTJ

Now, by that statement, either Obi-Wan trained Yoda (which we already know isn't true, "Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me") or Obi-Wan chose to train Anakin in a manner that he thought would be as good as Yoda's. However, if Yoda trained Obi-Wan in a manner that Obi-Wan expected to treat Anakin, then where would Qui-Gon Jinn come into this? Either Obi-Wan took on Anakin as his "Youngling", or Yoda took on Obi-Wan as his "Padawan", but it seems to me that these 2 are not the same concept, not the same teachings, and since we are shown that Qui-Gon is the one who took Obi-Wan as his Padawan, where did Yoda fit in? In Obi-Wan's expectations:

Anakin is to Obi-Wan what Obi-Wan is to Yoda

That leaves Qui-Gon out of the equation IMO.

2. Everyone in the Star Wars Universe has midi-chlorians. You could have as much as Anakin did, but if you are never discovered and trained, all it gives you is a sort of sixth sense about things.... Since Midi-chlorians seem to not be unique to any species, just like red blood cells arn't unique to just humans. Having a large ammount just means you have a higher potential to be a force user.
Again, this is only what Qui-Gon believes, there is no DIRECT correlary evidence to prove this and he is the ONLY one who states these things. Just as we could say that the authentic Sifo-Dyas, Jedi Master, ordered the clones from Kamino and that this Sifo-Dyas was a leader of the Jedi Council, that doesn't make it true - we have only one character's word to take on this. Just because Lama Su says it does not make it true - Sifo-Dyas may have had nothing to do with the clones, he may not have even been a Jedi coucil member.

[Beast]

No, it doesn't leave Qui-Gon out of the anything....he's dead. So why bring him up? Why should Ben sit there and explain everything that has happened 32 years prior to that point. Luke knows who Yoda is, so Obi-Wan was just trying to tell him what happened.

Yoda is one of the best Jedi Masters, and has trained many powerful Jedi's in his lifetime. Obi-Wan arrogently though that from his training under both Yoda and Qui-Gon and along with Anakin's abilites, that he could end up training him, just as well as if Yoda had done the job himself. I am sure that had it not been Qui-Gon's last wish before he died, that Obi-Wan train Anakin, that Yoda would have done it himself. He was honoring Qui-Gon's last wishes, both by not fighting the council on the training, and allowing Obi-Wan to do the training. Why waste screen time, and story time having Obi-Wan have to explain things to Luke that he wouldn't understand.

Not to mention, that Anakin's training had to start at the basics, somthing that Yoda would normally handle. But since Anakin was beyond the age usually that Yoda instructs them, Obi-Wan had to do that training. It was Yoda's mistake in allowing Obi-Wan to instruct Anakin, just following the wishes of Qui-Gon. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
1. Obi-Wan in the OT, only ever says that he was instructed by Yoda. The Prequel trilogy shows that this is so, ...

You contradict your own conclusion by continuing:
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

...Yoda trains all the younglings up until they are 7 or 8 and then they are taken as a padawan learner by a Jedi Master. Obi-Wan was instructed by Yoda, but completed his Jedi apprenticeship under Qui-Gon Jinn.

----------

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Qui-Gon is dead by the time ghost ben has to send Luke to finish his training, so why bring up a dead Jedi Master that is useless, when Yoda is alive and can train Luke. :)

You're right. In that particular instance, on Hoth, while Luke is lying there freezing to death, it is not the time to bandy words. However, Spirit Ben does say definitively "You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." Not, "a Jedi Master who instructed me." That would have left the door wide open for Spirit Ben to either explain himself later or not. Either way, it would have made the Qui Gon character a plausible addition into the saga.


So what about later, on Dagobah, when Spirit Ben sits down for a chat with Confused Luke? Why not mention Qui Gon then? At that point, everybody is dead, so Qui Gon should be fair game to mention using your own logic. Instead of giving Luke a rundown of what really happened in Episode I...

"When I first knew him, my Master Qui Gon told me that he was already a great pilot and he was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him based on his high Midichlorian blood sample and Anakin's own boasting words. Of course, I didn't witness it myself. But Qui Gon thought that he could train him just as well as his own Master, Count Dooku. Unfortunately Qui Gon was murdered before Anakin's training could really begin, so despite my misgivings about Anakin, as I agreed with the Jedi Council that he was dangerous, I nevertheless promised my Master that I would train the boy. Only after that, did I begin to see Anakin's potential. Then I thought that I could train him just as well as Qui Gon taught me. I was wrong."


But instead, he says this:

"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

Which one of those above examples sounds more like Episode I? Now if you want to believe that Obi Wan is a flat out rat bastard manipulating liar, than, sure, I suppose you could make a case for him not being forthright and telling Luke everything. But again, at this point in ROTJ, Spirit Ben is spilling the beans on the Vader identity question, so why continue the ruse over everything else? Besides, we still have yet to see any behavior that would indicate that Obi Wan is a manipulative scumbag, so it would be quite out of character for him to suddenly become one in the OT.

Or you could make the case that Lucas wrote choice 2 above to streamline the dialogue for the sake of drama and pacing in a commercial movie venture. Ok, maybe. Choice 1 is quite drawn out and would most likely prompt Luke to start asking questions, like "who is Qui Gon", "who was Dooku" "where did you guys find my father"...stuff like that. But, since we're stepping outside the box to pose this question, it is fair to say that Lucas didn't even have the details of Ep I and II written at the time of Ep VI, so it would have been impossible for him to have written Spirit Ben's dialogue that way anyway. Which leads us back to Lucas's original intention which was to have Obi Wan's only Master be Yoda and for Obi Wan to have discovered Anakin, witnessed his piloting skills firsthand, and him making the choice to train Anakin as a Jedi.

The unfortunate conclusion is that either the OT is wrong in it's description (through Obi Wan) of the events prior to ANH, or the Prequels are wrong in reflecting the history as described in the OT. They are mutually exclusive at this time.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

2. Everyone in the Star Wars Universe has midi-chlorians. You could have as much as Anakin did, but if you are never discovered and trained, all it gives you is a sort of sixth sense about things. The training is the big deal. Since Midi-chlorians seem to not be unique to any species, just like red blood cells arn't unique to just humans. Having a large ammount just means you have a higher potential to be a force user.


Okay. I get that, but it's not the process that I have an issue with, it's their existence in the first place. It's one thing to have a sixth sense, as indeed many humans here on Earth do, but it's another to create a Superman-like character who young audience members can never really aspire to be like. They can admire him, but know in their hearts that he has something that they can never have. Same with Spiderman. Unless I can get bitten by a radioactive spider, all I can do is watch a hero in action, but I know that he has an advantage that I can never really obtain. It's a question of either writing a heroic character who the audience can relate to or writing a heroic character who the audience can simply watch in action. I wholeheartedly believe, through Lucas's own words and history, as well as through the words of a guy like Joseph Campbell (who Lucas NEVER discounted and actually encouraged) that the original intention was to create choice A, a heroic character with whom the audience would empathize with. In one fell-swoop, Midichlorians erased the humanity and personal triumph that we all felt when Luke triumphed over evil using nothing more than his strength of character and perseverance.

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

3. I doubt that these Naboo soldiers have ever seen a Sith Lord before.

Exactly! This is a time of war and anybody that a soldier doesn't recognize, especially a guy looking like that, would be fair game for instantaeous action.

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Plus it's obvious that Maul doesn't care about the Naboo or the Queen to attack them.

Of course he doesn't. He's really only interested in dispatching the Jedi, but he sees a bunch of guys standing there with guns. It would be insane to try to run through the soldiers and put his back to them in order to only take on the Jedi.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Padme could have ordered them to open fire on him,

In a time of war, when this group is obviously going to face an opposition force, do they really have to wait before shooting anybody?

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

but Qui-Gon says that they will handle it,

After a long drawn out pause while everybody stares stupidly at one another.

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

and she chooses that since he seems to know best, takes the advice and leads her men off on an alternate route to the Viceroy.

Her actual words are, "We'll take the long way."

This is another issue of poor writing because she whines about it later when they are trapped in a hallway upstairs somewhere. She says, "We don't have time for this, Captain." I just wanted him to turn to her and say, "Well, it was your stupid idea to go the long way. Why didn't we just blow that weird alien guy away down there and take the shortest route possible to the throne room?"

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Maul was only there to deal with the Jedi, so that's why he just waited for them to step up. :)


Exactly. He wasn't in any particular hurry since the Nabooians or the Jedi didn't seem to be either. Poorly presented and forced beginning to a battle sequence.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

4. R2-D2's introduction is fine. He's a matinence droid for a Starfighter/Starship. Where do you think he is going to come from?

Like I said, blow the trumpets. It's R2 D2. Bah ba ba BAHHH! (the crowd roars in nostalgiac approval.)

Where he comes from isn't the issue. It's the forced and blatant reading of his name that doesn't flow well. Think back to other films you've liked and how character names are introduced. Generally, the author drops the name within the flow of the story. Take this for example:

"I see, sir."
"You can call me Luke."
"Oh, I see Sir Luke."
"No, just Luke."

He doesn't stand on a podium and announce, "My name is LUKE SKYWALKER!" It's a lot more subtle than that. That's all I'm asking for.

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Through the entire OT R2-D2 saves the day in each movie. Without him there would be no rebel allience, and the Death Star never would have been destroyed. What is wrong with R2-D2 being heroic and saving the day in E1?

Not a thing. It's great that the littlest hero is the "biggest" at the end of the day. And guess what? He didn't even need Midichlorians to do any of it! :)

Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Where did the Queen command R2-D2?

That's not what I said. The word is "commend," as in congratulate or recognize:

Originally posted by stillakid
The entire scene is written quite awkwardly, particularly the Queen's dialogue when she "commends" the droid.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
[B]
She commands Padme to clean R2-D2? Doesn't he deserve a little attention for saving the day. Especially since the Naboo love everything clean and beautiful.



Of course! It's nice to have a spiffy looking droid around. :)

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
[B]
5. I like how Lucas decided to expand Boba's past. So many people for ages have wanted to know his story, and Lucas was kind enough to give it to us. We know from Empire that Vader atleast knows of Boba's reputation, even warning him..."No Disintigrations". Plus we haven't seen how Boba's story plays out in Episode III yet. It's better then the 3-4 different backstories that EU has given him. :)


This comes down to personal taste. I haven't read any of the EU stuff about him, so I can't judge how well it was handled. But, in my own opinion, it was that uncertain past of a rogue looking bounty hunter that made him so cool. POOF! gone. Just like that.


Thanks for listening! :)

[Tycho]

JediTricks comments that Anakin hearing Yoda talking about midichlorians could have meant Yoda was referring to them in any of several different contexts are 'sustained.'

I am more inclined to believe what JarJar does, that high midi-chlorian counts are normal for Jedi and that this is typically a good thing, but JT is right in that there is no evidence one way or the other.


Now To STILLAKID:

First I'm starting at one of your later posts. I did not read all your previous ones because it is the same old thing with your objections to material brought up by the prequels. Furthermore, material brought up by the film doesn't make TPM film itself good or bad anyway. That's probably a separate discussion, but I'll go into it further if you've brought that up here. I'm starting with your objections to Qui-Gon. But one last thing before I do: JediTricks not only made new arguments in this topic arena, but he also normally doesn't even bother. This is a "Stillakid Agenda Item" with you - as evidenced by your many posts regarding this and most obviously by you starting the thread. That JediTricks had something new to offer the viewpoint that is on an opposing side of my own, is why I found it interesting. JT also brings up more difficult evidence to refute. As we will see, your case has a lot of holes in it.

On TO QUI-GON (per Stillakid's theories of his inclusion in the SW lore)

We are led to specifically believe in the OT that Obi Wan Kenobi was trained by Yoda.

TRUE. But he also could have gone to cooking school and been trained by Dexter Jettster. Should the Original Trilogy have presented Obi-Wan's academic transcripts to satisfy Stillakid? Operators are standing by!


We are also led to specifically believe in the OT that a young and inexperienced Obi Wan Kenobi, thinking himself to be able to handle the training of a new recruit, took it upon himself to train Anakin without a suggestion from anyone else.

FALSE. Obi-Wan did tell Luke everything Stillakid says, except he did not say it was not without a suggestion from anyone else. With your permission, Your Honor, I'd like to introduce evidence that Obi-Wan telephoned Miss Cleo on May 16, 1999 to ask her if he should train Anakin. He did not tell Luke that he did not request the advice of Qui-Gon, Miss Cleo, or Donald Rumsfield before proceeding. Please take note, that not all meetings that went on during the Enron debacle have been uncovered yet either. They're hearing testimony from everyone else, it will only be a matter of time before Obi-Wan Kenobi gets called before the judiciary committee.

We are also led to believe in the OT that Obi Wan was the one person who actually found Anakin, realized his potential, and decided that he should be trained.

FALSE. Obi-Wan did not describe how he was out camping by himself at a State Beach, then suddenly decided to drive more than an hour inland to stay out in the desert when he winded up finding a 9 year old boy staying with him. That's right! He was telling Luke how he lost his wallet and was searching for it, when he found this kid instead. No. Strike that. He didn't tell Luke he FOUND or DISCOVERED anything! That's hearsay.

The witness said: "When I first knew him, I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi." He could have consulted with the Energizer Bunny who might have told him to push it upon Sifo-Dyas to train the boy, or he might have "decided myself" that the Catholic Academy was the best place to train the boy. Or Doctor Laura might have advised him to take it upon himself to train Anakin.

Meanwhile, he didn't discover anything, except that it's possible that Doctor Laura gives bad advice.

I can go into specifics about why this is positively true, but the last time I did, I backed my "opponent" into a corner and it came down to the annunciation of a single word in the ESB. That word in question was "the" as in "You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." Naturally, a further discussion ensued as to the flexibility of the English language and how there was enough "wiggle room" to allow for multiple teachers in Obi Wan's past.

FALSE / TRUE - you did not back your opponent into a corner because of the phrase "the Jedi Master who instructed me." True that wiggle room is provided around how you interpret "the": - as THE (only) Master to instruct him, or as the Jedi Master that (also) did instruct him. That detail is not important to get Luke Skywalker to train with Yoda, so more information is not given. You believe what YOU WANT that sentence to mean. Not what it explicitly does or does not mean. However I would like to introduce a new contradiction to illustrate my point:

In his Senate Testimony, Obi-Wan said that in the interests of protecting the Queen, he was unexpetedly brought into the Battle of Naboo conflict by virtue of being a passenger aboard her Royal Starship, THE ship that carried him into the conflict. However, since he was brought to Naboo from Coruscant originally aboard the Republic ship, Radiant VII, the Naboo ship is not THE ship that unexpectedly brought him into the Battle of Naboo conflict.

Oh, and what was THE Battle of Naboo Conflict? Was Obi-Wan part of the Gungan Army? No. Did he fly Naboo fighters? Well he was in the hanger. Why? To crew the Naboo fighters. So he was in the hanger to crew the Naboo's fighters but he did not fly? Yes. So how was he involved in THE Battle of the Naboo conflict? He was not? But he was assigned there to protect the Queen? No? He was there to discover the identity of the attacker. That was Darth Maul, right? Yes. Well was Darth Maul part of the Trade Federation? No. Then was Darth Maul part of the Battle for Naboo? Yes. But he was a Sith. Well why didn't Obi-Wan just ask him who he was? Why did it require the death of Qui-Gon as well as Darth Maul if Obi-Wan's mission was to just discover the identity of the Queen's attacker? Then why did he partipate in the Battle of Naboo? He could have just asked Maul for his driver's license!

Stillakid, I could do this for pages. The word "THE" is an article. Its place in the sentence from The Empire Strikes Back is meaningless without further explaination.



I still maintain that a) Qui Gonn wasn't invented until long after the OT was completed, and b) the original intention was to have Obi Wan be the sole discoverer and "decider" to train Anakin.

TRUE / FALSE. Qui-Gon was invented around 1997, not before.

FALSE - you can maintain whatever you want, but only Lucas knows if he always intended Obi-Wan to be the one to DISCOVER Anakin, and Lucas does have every right to change his original intention, because he had a new plan for Obi-Wan Kenobi that better explains why he could not make a Jedi out of Anakin. What is TRUE is that you don't like that plan, regardless of its origins, and you want to try to use logical arguments to state that it is contradictory to help sway people to see your opinion. All you actually CAN do is state that you don't like this. And while you're at it, please stop beating us over the head with it. That is why I question your motives and suspect you like to antagonize this issue.

The way I see it, the only reason to give Obi Wan a Master at all in Ep I was so that the villain (Maul) would have someone significant to kill. That then allows Obi Wan the opportunity to climactically avenge somebody's death for drama's sake. The entire rest of the movie (TPM), Obi Wan literally has nothing to do and is left sitting in the wings twiddleing his thumbs until Qui Gonn bites it.

So? It's a drama and something was done for the drama's sake? Again: so what?

And Obi-Wan has nothing to do? He's a padawan and it's being established that what a padawan should do is act as a PATIENT back-up for his master. We'll see how Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan doesn't work. Why not see how a relationship is supposed to work so he can have something to compare it to? Finally, if Obi-Wan is a main character (he is) why not learn who trained him in a Master-Apprentice relationship? If he cannot vanquish Yoda's slayer for "drama's sake" why not make it someone else? (Yoda has to live, and Yoda would not make the controversial request that Obi-Wan 1) train someone who's too old to be trained and 2) train someone when he was not even a Jedi KNIGHT yet himself, let alone a master deemed ready for a padwan!) So either Kenobi is a failure, or a set of these 2 circumstances were given to him by someone he would be loyal to, but who was more fallable and could make more mistakes than Yoda could.

So you WANT Obi-Wan to have more to do because you like him better than Qui-Gon. Fine. But you also want him to be a bigger loser because circumstances 1 and 2 were either his fault, or Yoda's? That's not consistent. Like I said, you're some kind of zealous Obi-Wan fan or somebody that finds it difficult to adapt their childhood vision of Star Wars. Or - for your son's sake, any child's vision of Star Wars. So therefore I assume you'd say there should be nothing in there for adults to review the movie with at a later time and discover something deeper? Then I can't wait to see the CGI "stork" that brings baby Luke and Leia to Padme's bedside, because no one in the Star Wars universe can possibly have sex, and everything happens on screen, right? Or did I forget Episode 3.69 - Star Wars: The Porno?

Without calling upon the time-honored "wiggle room," or as Einstein labeled his own gray area, the "cosmological constant," as the OT and the Prequels stand at present, there isn't any way to marry the two without creating a problem. Now, if JT's theory comes to pass, and GL deals with Qui Gon in Ep III in such a way as to include him in Palpatine's plot in a highly significant manner, then we'll talk some more.

So if you lose this argument, you'll disappear in 2005, or you actually WANT to bother us with your tastes and preferences on this theory for three more years? Now folks, I like Stillakid and could consider him an internet friend. I'd like to meet him and go with him for a beer at a club close to a Toys R Us, but I have other friends with pet peeves that annoy me. I am not attacking Stillakid - but on this issue, I really DO want to shut him up!

(or just get him to say: "I don't like this (about the PT)." And then move on. There's so much more to talk about with SW.

Anyway, going on...


MIDI-CHLORIANS

Stillakid's main thing here (I think) is that he literally wants to BE Luke Skywalker (or did as a child) and now is miffed (still like a kid, pun definitely intended) that he must have midi-chlorians to feel the Force and be an everday-guy-turned hero.

I know he's home squinting his eyes and straining like he's constipated because he's still trying to levitate his compute while he's reading this. (Joke meant in the interest of HUMOR - maybe. I have wondered if Stillakid keeps trying to USE the Force privately, LOL)

Anyway, I maintain this because here is the crux of the problem as Stillakid states it:

Introducing a profound "specialness" like a symbiotic organism into the bloodstream of our hero, Luke, goes beyond the extra potential that mortal humans carry with them to be better at some things more than others. For example, sports or artistic ability aren't dependent upon any external so