Do you have any fears about Episode II: Attack of the Clones?

[Tycho]

We've seen 3 trailers and a lot of behind-the-scenes footage.

Do you have any fears about Episode II: Attack of the Clones?

[browndroid]

im kinda worried, i mean ep1 had its lame parts so im guessing ep2 willl also.

[Starfig873]

I still think Ep.I was a fun and great movie. I don't think I'll have a problem with Ep.II

[tk006]

I'm sure this movie will be enjoyable but I hope Lucas restrains himself with those cute cuddly obnoxious creatures! This whole mess started with those damned Ewoks!
Senator Jar-Jar?! ....I'm feeling sick already! How about carbon freeze Jar-Jar?

[2-1B]

Overall, I think it will be a good movie, but my biggest concerns are

1) Yoda fighting
2) Massive arena battle - I hope it isn't too bland and cheesy

[Lord Tenebrous]

My primary concern is how well Episode II will engage the audience. Episode I was a very passive movie, between the special effects and the liquidity of the plot. Episode II is shaping up to have even more effects and liquidity. Which means we'll probably be even more apathetic to the story. But I hope I'm wrong.

[LusiferSam]

I?m really looking forward to ep2. In any film there are parts that don?t work as well as others parts. I don?t think ep1 was overly fraught with problems, so ep2 should be either. And am I the only person over the age of 10 who is not bothered by Jar Jar?

[bigbarada]

I liked Jar Jar and I'll be 29 on May 16th.

From what I've seen and read, my main concern is that Lucas will try to cram too much into one film. Some of the action in TPM went by so fast that I had trouble caring what happened to the characters. If Ep2 is just a series of action sequences strung together by a shaky plot, then I fear the worst for Ep3.

[Casual George]

You ain't seen nothing yet. Mark my words these next two films are going to blow your mind through the back of the theatre walls!

[JetsAndHeels]

I personally can't wait for EP2. I am literally counting the days until I can get in there and see it!! From reading the spoilers and seeing the trailers, this movie is going to make people forget about EP1. Now the story is set up, and we can get on with business in this film. Only 108 days, folks.

[rogue_12]

all ihave to say is stop whining like a bunch of school girls with sraped knees! if you are a star wars fan then ep ii will be alright! just think only 4 years 'til the boxed set!!!

[bigbarada]

I'm trying to lull myself into a state of casual disinterest for EP2. This way my expectations will be as neutral as possible, not too hopeful so I won't be let down and not too negative that I overlook the cool stuff.

[Turbowars]

Originally posted by Casual George
You ain't seen nothing yet. Mark my words these next two films are going to blow your mind through the back of the theatre walls! I sure the hell hope so!! E1 was very disappointing. Carbon freezing JarJar would be a great idea!! One of my biggest concerns is how Lucus plans on doing the transition from the highly aerodynamic ships to the blockly ships that we know and love from E4,5,and 6. Lucus is a great guy so I hope he give us a great movie!!

[JediTricks]

I have a few concerns, but nothing earth shaking - unlike my negative feelings for Ep 1 before it came out. The Yoda thing does have me uneasy, and I'm not sold on Hayden's acting, those 2 spring right to my mind.

One thing that worries me that isn't about the film itself though is this need for some folks to spout the party line as if they were Rick McCallum himself. It seems like some are adamantly furious about anybody who doesn't have 110% pure blind faith in Lucas and this movie. I'd rather be cautiously hopeful but expect less and be pleasantly surprised than be told I'm "not a fan" and my "attitude is too negative" by folks who know nothing more about the film than the rest of us.

[stillakid]

This poll seems like an invitation for a rumble. ;)

I'm with JT on this (as usual). As a stand alone movie, I remain cautiously optimistic. As another piece of the prequel puzzle, it'll always be less than it could have been because of the pathetic foundation laid down by Episode I.

If I have any huge concerns at this point, one would be that Episode II appears to be more like a soap-opera than any kind of science-fiction or action or adventure movie that we all enjoy so much. Maybe the Danielle Steele audience will get into it this time.

[TK421]

I am no excited at all.. It seems to me that Mr.Lucas should have stopped at ROTJ or continue after that movie... Just a thought.
Classic Trilogy all the way!!!;)

[Wolfwood319]

I just can't get myself into the whole "prequel" era. I have yet to see a character that I really like, and I think the special effects nowadays take too much away from the movie.

I look forward to seeing the movie, but it isn't my life's purpose at this point. There's too much of a difference between OT and what I've seen/read about the prequels, it almost seems like two different sagas in my mind.

I'm just worried that too many Special effects will over shadow the movie, as with most other sci-fi films released now, like E1. If I want to watch a cgi cartoon, I'll watch toy story. That's my biggest concern.

[SithDroid]

I'm not too hyped to see it either. EP I was a bit of a let down and I just don't know about EP II. I'll go see it, but only after seeing Spiderman a couple of times. That is the movie that I'm looking forward to the most.

[Dryanta]

I am looking foward to the movie.I also learned a long time ago to accept certain "Cute" characters as part of an attempt to appeal to a very broad audience.I really don't understand the harsh words concerning EP1.I can stand ewoks and even JarJAr Binks but the inclusion of Boba Fett into everything is a real stretch for me.Where's Han as a Boy.Chewie's 200 years old and a major Character in the OT (unlike scream like a girl Fett) where is he?At least a cameo, come on!! Maybe it's because I remember a world without VCRs.When We saw the OT it was once and wait years for the next one.I guess that mindset stuck because I still very much look foward to AOTC. Sorry Fett fans

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Dryanta
I am looking foward to the movie.I also learned a long time ago to accept certain "Cute" characters as part of an attempt to appeal to a very broad audience.I really don't understand the harsh words concerning EP1.I can stand ewoks and even JarJAr Binks but the inclusion of Boba Fett into everything is a real stretch for me.Where's Han as a Boy.Chewie's 200 years old and a major Character in the OT (unlike scream like a girl Fett) where is he?At least a cameo, come on!! Maybe it's because I remember a world without VCRs.When We saw the OT it was once and wait years for the next one.I guess that mindset stuck because I still very much look foward to AOTC. Sorry Fett fans


Don't feel alone. I think that the inclusion of the Fett Family is ridiculous and is nothing more than an attempt to appeal to fan's, who fell in love with a B character, sense of nostalgia. That whole storyline is a huge negative for me. The understanding in the '80's was that these guys called Mandalorian's or something, were a band of bad guys who helped wipe out the Jedi. Years later, a renegade bounty hunter used PIECES of the Mandalorian's armor to construct his own bad a s s uniform. Now it's nothing more than a hand-me down complete go-to-work costume along with dear ol' dad's hand-me-down spaceship. Gimme a break.

[Dryanta]

Thanks Stillakid.I know now I'm not alone on the Fett thing and your words fit my attitude towards the whole thing perfectly.I can understand the Family story line with the skywalkers but this B-character thing hand me downs and all really bugs me

[Darth Knight]

I have a bad feeling about this. What is George Lucas thinking? "Return of the Jedi" those ewoks and the zippers on the back of their costumes bad effects in Jabbas palace. Ep 1 Jar Jar binks!The only good thing about Ep 1 was the dual light saber battle in the end of the movie. "new Hope" and The Empire Strikes back" Best Star Wars movies ever made so far. Ep 2 ?

[Darth Shinji]

I am interested to see the Fett family. I am interested to see the inside of Slave I. I am interested to see if the quote from Vader to Fett on the bridge of the Executor is explained ("No disintegrations.") I don't care if George is capitolizing on the fans likes and dislikes, he is doing something he likes. I hope that some small kid somewhere is interested in Jango like I was with Boba when I saw him (animated) on the holiday special. All I expect are some questions answered, some more raised, and possibly a revelation (eg. Luke's dad...Empire) To answer the question posed, I have my reservations, and as a hardcore Star Wars fan, I'm ashamed to say, I'm REALLY looking forward to Spiderman, because I've been waiting for this movie for twenty years. Maybe a little move Clone presence in advertising will pique my interest and help AotC rise above Spidey.


Maybe


Hpoefully


Ah... who cares, I'm going to LIVE in the damn theater in May!!

[wedge5377]

From all looks the trailers seem to give us a good hint of this being a greater film than EP 1. We can always look back if you take my opinion that Empire was the best of the original three and hope for the best.

And for all those doubters these next to films will blow you into the back of the theatre EP 1 was just a backstory, I Hope.

[Wolfwood319]

Shinji, don't feel bad if you're more interested in something else besides AOTC, this year. There are like 5 movies coming out this year that I have more interest in seeing than E2.

I don't really want to learn about Boba Fett's youth (hey, good band name!). It seems to me that GL is just using him because of his previous popularity from the OT. Heaven forbid they do something original!

As for you, Wedge, how do you know that E2 will "blow us to the back of the theater?" Have you seen a sneak preview of the film? You call us doubters, I call you naive. Its nice to be optimistic, but it helps to be a realist.

[Man In The Box]

hey if ep.II sucks, theres always LOTR.

But man AOTC? I was able to get used to TMP as the ep.1 title, but I'll prolly just laugh if I say AOTC.

I think AOTC will be better than Ep.1 anyway, it's suppoed to be less childish and of course GL could learn form him previous mistakes.

[CaptainSolo1138]

My only "fear" is the merchandise blunder Lucas & Co. accomplished for Episode I. I want a Jango Fett soap dispenser, but do they really need to make enough for every housewife in Iowa?

[stillakid]

That's it! Forget the blow up Jar Jar chair. Get Britney Spears in the movie and put blow up Britney chairs in the stores. Guaranteed to sell out.

[Co Jo-Da]

I'm very excited about Attack of the Clones, from all acounts of what I've read, heard, and seen thus far. The Phantom Menace was a fun movie to watch but Attack of the Clones is going to be the true Episode I.

[CaptainSolo1138]

Why not? She's half plastic already! Uh, that was pretty bad. She'd come with a voice chip so she could whine and complain every time you wanted to sit down and actually make her useful for something besides looking at. And then she'd demand she be packed with a Justin Timberlake end table. Wow, I bet even Seventeen magazine hasn't been able to use Justin Timberlake's name and the word "end table" in a sentence! I rule. Lance Bass Entertainment center!

[Corran Horn]

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3242

I bet the reason for the smooth ships in the prequels and more blockiness in the OT is because, well the Clone Wars were a dark time. There was mass destruction. Its kinda like the prequels are Roman/ Greek times, then the clone wars part of it is like total war, uncivilized, loss of knowledge and lack of care, the same with the OT. Its all after a huge war, where all records and the glory ofthe republic is gone. The empire was more militaristic than the republic, so beuatiful designs didnt matter. They probably destroyed all the pretty republic and supporters stuff, and for example the royal naboo ship, well the empire took control and nobody had royal wealth. With all the war going on, people couldnt buy nice stuff, and wanted some muscle in thier ship for smuggling, skirmishes, etc. The old production corporations were gone and now new Imperial era companies were producing stronger mor warlike designs for the new direction the galaxy was taking. Let me know what you think. Post here, email me rogue9@attbi.com, or else AOL is CorranHorn328

[stillakid]

How insightful.

[bigbarada]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Corran Horn. Technology doesn't necessarily move forward at a constant rate. There are multitudes of events and catastrophes which could send us back to the middle ages, even now. Being that we've lived in a time of prosperity and amazing technological progress all of our lives, it's a little hard for us to look outside of our own little realm of experience and see that things were not always this way.

[JediTricks]

Originally posted by CaptainSolo1138
Why not? She's half plastic already! Uh, that was pretty bad. She'd come with a voice chip so she could whine and complain every time you wanted to sit down and actually make her useful for something besides looking at. And then she'd demand she be packed with a Justin Timberlake end table. Wow, I bet even Seventeen magazine hasn't been able to use Justin Timberlake's name and the word "end table" in a sentence! I rule. Lance Bass Entertainment center! Here, I can rule too: I want to see Samuel L Jackson hit Justin Timberlake in the head with an end table. ;) :D :Pirate:

[CaptainSolo1138]

The force is strong with this one. I officially give the "rule" title to you, JediTricks!

[Rollo Tomassi]

I agree with JT and stilakid. I don't think it's going to be good BEFORE I go see it. I'll think it's good (or not)AFTER I see it. But the more and more spoilage that gets dropped (like the sections of script around the forums) the more I think I like what I'm gonna see. More political intrigue. More levity. More ambiguous overtones. It might even make Episode I more tolerable.

[Corran Horn]

It's going to be great I think. With Jango Fett and Boba Fett, and perhaps Palpatine declares himself Emperor here? I Like it. It would be a TON better if Lucas ha gone through the novels like Zahns and used people like Garm Bel Iblis, Joruus C'Boath, etc. Perhaps we will see a man in the background of a scene with palpatine where there is a man who matches C'Boath's features? And if he wanted to get a major movie going, he could ad Thrawn. Heck, I'm gonna start a new thread about EU movies. Go find it.:crazed:

[odb]

Despite what I have seen I still have doubts about AOTC. I think Lucas will try to put too much in the film leading to people coming away indifferent as they never get to know the characters before the next big action sequence.

The whole issue of reveling Boba Fetts past has the potential to go badly wrong. BobaFetts appeal seems to be built on his mysterious past. If all this is explained I think his appeal with disapear or be badly damaged.

I think I'll reserve my opinion till I've seen the film as nowadays they can make a trailer sell any film (see Battlefield Earth as an example). But from TPMs example I'm not overconfident.

[Dar' Argol]

I don't think I will have any problems with EP2. Here's why, and please bear with me.

EP1 was exactly what I had expected and I enjoyed every minute of it, inclueding Jar Jar. If you think he was annoying think of Luke's constant whining in ANH. This is what a lot of people forgot about TPM. ITS THE FIRST CHAPTER IN A BOOK!!!! Whenever you read the first couple chapters in a book they are BOREING!! They are doing character development and setting the rest of the story up. EP1 did the same thing. The only differance is that all of us skipped to the middle, read about 200 pages and then decided to go back and start from the begining. This is by no means our fault. It was Lucas's idea to do it this way. So we all know that Anakin becomes Vader, we know just how evil Palpatine is, and we know good will conquer evil in the end. What we didn't know is how it all got started. WE have now gone back to the begining of the book, and began anew.

As far as the technology I read briefly about and how EP1 looks all great with its shipp and what not. In EP1 everyone had money, the Senate was in control(sorta) and the Empire was no where to be found(yet). After Palpatine takes over, destroys the Senate and gives the intire cosmos a galactic wedgie no one has much money. Everyone dumped their resources into the Clone Wars. So when everything get back to "normal" after the war, people still need to make a living. So they scrounge up what leftovers there are, make modifacations, and voila, you have the junky looking ships we have all come to love. Besides, how much funds do you think the rebellion had first starting up? SQUAT!! So they build their ships out of whatever was laying around and hoped it worked.

I just hope that everyone remembers these points and before you go blasting another SW movie b/c it does not live up to the standards set by the trilogy. That was one of the thinks I hated in other boards I was involved in. Everyone blasted EP1 because it was not the trilogy. DUH! :crazed:

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Dar' Argol
I don't think I will have any problems with EP2. Here's why, and please bear with me.

EP1 was exactly what I had expected and I enjoyed every minute of it, inclueding Jar Jar. If you think he was annoying think of Luke's constant whining in ANH. This is what a lot of people forgot about TPM. ITS THE FIRST CHAPTER IN A BOOK!!!! Whenever you read the first couple chapters in a book they are BOREING!! They are doing character development and setting the rest of the story up. EP1 did the same thing. The only differance is that all of us skipped to the middle, read about 200 pages and then decided to go back and start from the begining. This is by no means our fault. It was Lucas's idea to do it this way. So we all know that Anakin becomes Vader, we know just how evil Palpatine is, and we know good will conquer evil in the end. What we didn't know is how it all got started. WE have now gone back to the begining of the book, and began anew.

As far as the technology I read briefly about and how EP1 looks all great with its shipp and what not. In EP1 everyone had money, the Senate was in control(sorta) and the Empire was no where to be found(yet). After Palpatine takes over, destroys the Senate and gives the intire cosmos a galactic wedgie no one has much money. Everyone dumped their resources into the Clone Wars. So when everything get back to "normal" after the war, people still need to make a living. So they scrounge up what leftovers there are, make modifacations, and voila, you have the junky looking ships we have all come to love. Besides, how much funds do you think the rebellion had first starting up? SQUAT!! So they build their ships out of whatever was laying around and hoped it worked.

I just hope that everyone remembers these points and before you go blasting another SW movie b/c it does not live up to the standards set by the trilogy. That was one of the thinks I hated in other boards I was involved in. Everyone blasted EP1 because it was not the trilogy. DUH! :crazed:


You've missed the point of the "whining" about EP I. Yes, we know how it all ends up, but TPM was a poorly written story with many inconsistencies within itself as well as with the remainder of the previously told storyline. Also, as the first "book" of the series, it is under no requirement to be boring or dull just because there might be some exposition requirements. If you take some time to read the many insightful discussions concerning TPM in the numerous other threads, then you'll see that most of us don't shoot from the hip just to cut something down. There are countless well thought out arguments concerning this issue which in turn resulted in the need for this very topic about Ep II.

And yes, we all understand how the peaceful galaxy had clean lines and such, but then turned "junky" during the war. That's really no secret and hasn't been since the mid-80's.

[Dar' Argol]

Originally posted by stillakid



If you take some time to read the many insightful discussions concerning TPM in the numerous other threads, then you'll see that most of us don't shoot from the hip just to cut something down. There are countless well thought out arguments concerning this issue which in turn resulted in the need for this very topic about Ep II.


I was never suggesting any one was "shooting from the hip". I apologize. This is just one of the many blastings I have since from the release of TPM. I am not one to blindly believe that all the GL puts out is gold and should be worshiped. There are a good # of things wrong with TPM. I for one, and this is my opinion, think it was a good movie and a good start to the series. But it seems to me all I see is the bad about the movie. No one comments on anything else. So, once again I am sorry. Its just one view point and a healthy debate.:happy:hi

[stillakid]

True, much of what has been written has been negative about TPM probably because it's easier to talk about the bad stuff.:)

It had it's positives for sure, like the Production Design, and, um, well I liked the music.

Unfortunately, the story was so poorly structured that much of it made little sense. I personally found much of the acting to be horrid (Sam Jackson, Jake Lloyd, for two). Too many inconsistencies with the OT, including, but not limited to Midichlorians and Qui Gonn Jinn. And many of the story elements were way over the top and the dialogue was designed for 5 year olds.

The balance of good vs bad things about TPM are cause of concern for what we'll be given in EP II, but I remain cautiously hopeful that GL heard the critics and fans loud and clear. I believe that is the reason he got help writing EP II and (as some of the members here believe) the reason more "spoilers" have been released to help appease the discouraged masses.

Head on over to the EP I board and post some of the great things you thought of TPM! I'm sure everyone would love to hear them and join in a "spirited" discussion. :D

Cheers!

[jonthejedi]

I know Mr. Lucas has always said his target audience for Star Wars is the 9-year old. I fear he pandered too much to that mentality with Phantom Menace. Most of us think Empire rocks...but did George direct it...NO! I think Mr. Lucas' skills lie in the producer/editing depts. I prayed for 10 years Mr. Spielberg or Cameron or Howard..or gosh even Chris Columbus would get a shot at directing one. I'm very optimistic that he at least got another screenwriter to help him. From what I've seen...the Clone troopers don't bother me as much as the return of battle droids from Ep. 1. After their dismal failure against the forces of Naboo...why re-employ them? Hmmmm? I am excited overall...kids don't forget to have your VCRs set Sunday night on Fox. I'm Sure this trailer will blow us off our sofas. jonthejedi

[mark2d2]

Sadly, the new trailer only heightened my concerns. It was the Phantom Menace all over again. Horrible acting. Flat, uninteresting writing. And a Yoda that is just plain odd. The CGI simply doesn't not look as realistic as the folks at Lucasfilm must think. Scene after scene looked flat out phoney.

I really enjoyed ALL three of the other trailers -- especially the Mystery Trailer. And my excitement built and built as I saw each one. The one today . . . was just a big let down.

Oh, well. I'll always have the O.T. . . .

PS -- I agree, Jonthejedi. Lucas did pander. More than that he underestimated the 9 year olds. Really. They aren't that unsophisticated.

[Tycho]

Mark2D2, I don't disagree with you. What I wonder though is this:

Is the state of computer generated graphics up to the task of creating something that is real, and making it look right?

For the specific purpose of doing vehicles and flying things, can someone at ILM take a blank screen and create an image of George W. Bush driving a green Pinto through a carwash while birds fly bye just waiting for the car to be clean again?

And make it look really real - when all of it is fake starting from scratch?

Alright, let's make it Elvis driving a 2003 Mitsubishi - something that's impossible to get real footage of today.

We know that Geonosians, Acklays, Republic Gunships, and Battle Droids are not real. So it is easier to disbelieve them in the movie. What I don't know about is the current level of achievement in Computer Generated Graphics.

ILM does the effects for Star Trek and Jurassic Park. They both consistently look pretty good. In "Clone Wars" the spider droid was a little over the top.

If Lucasfilm had actually built that thing out of parts in autoshop, or used motorized or stop-motion miniatures (like the AT-AT's filmed in 1979) and composited it, would it have been better?

Or is it the fact that 25 foot tall robotic spider droids don't exist?

[mark2d2]

My biggest gripe is that Yoda looked just, well, bizarre. Clearly, whatever the limits of the puppet were, he photographed well.

As far as the ships go --- hey, they all look great. CGI works great for ships and inanimate objects. Most droids too.

It's mainly the creatures, and any shot with a human in it against the arena that look really REALLY fake. I mean cartoonish. Like Toy Story. (Which was great, but not at all photorealistic. Nor was it trying to be...)

To be truthful, the fact that there is going to be this MASSIVE battle simply doesn't thrill me at all. It's like Episode I. I couldn't have cared less about any of the gunguns in the final battle. Or the pilots attacking the trade Federation ships. They were just this mass of casualties. I felt no connection to any of them. They were either annoying. (JarJar) Or they were barely there. (The pilots) These especially were poorly done. Just a barrage of generic Nabooians. "The deflector shield is too strong!" Who cares? These weren't characters, they were Extras with lines. In ANH you really got a sense of who each of pilots were within minutes and then as they died one by one it was quite disturbing. It was amazingly well done. In fact Return of the Jedi also suffered from this problem -- as a result it's big space battle simply isn't nearly as gripping. There's way more cool ships whizzing around. But somehow, there's little to care about.

Another concern I have is that too many things --- the 25 foot spider for example are just wierd for the sake of being wierd. Often, the designs seem a bit generic. (Everything has multiple legs, everything has tentacles...) But yes, Had you shot people against a motorized prop of this 25 foot spider it probably would have looked better.

Then there's what passes for the dialogue. There is no wit in the new films. Which ANH and ESB had in spades. The characters not only were clever. They said clever things. So far, nobody says anything even close to clever in the trailers and that's a big concern. At least to me.

[JEDIpartner]

I agree with Mark on many of his points regarding the CG business. One of my friends, who is NOT, a big SW junkie as I am, thought the CG elements were a little TOO obvious in TPM. That was just the tip of the iceberg. Now that Lucas has all of this digital technology, it seems that they are getting into less real and more digital overkill. The overall texture of the visual element is starting to suffer or cheapen, if you will. Think of how "real" the interior of the Death Star seemed. Much of that has been missing in the CG laden "interiors" of the larger sets.

As far as the "spider" thing... I dunno. I'm torn on that. There were some really great shots of the stop motion AT-ATs, but some of the close-ups and side shots looked a little odd. They really did seem like props... considering the matte painting backdrop sky was a lot bluer than the on-location shots.

[Tycho]

Mark,

I agree with you on just about everything you just posted.

I too had a problem with some of the shots of Yoda. It's just not as interesting to discuss as another point you make.

The extras. In ROTJ's space battle, if Hobbie and Janson returned on screen - and even got killed leading Green and Grey Squadrons, that would have been much more intense such as when Garven Dreis, Biggs, Gold Leader, and Porkins bit it. Or if Hobbie and Janson had to survive to continue Rogue Squadron lore, give them wingmen with names to die protecting them.

Names help a lot. Familiar characters - even extras - do too!

Yes, to the spider droid too - weird for just the sake of it? To a degree. I think the Backtoid Army devices mirror the natural lifeforms that evolve on Geonosis though. The BattleDroids look like Geonosians, hence the Spider Droid would be a "clone" of the Acklay monster.

The Arena is probably used to demostrate for weapons sales as well as for entertainment "Roman Style." I think they typically pit their new droid against its form they based it on.

This makes some sense. Today stealth fighters mirror bat-rays and airplanes are built sort of resembling birds and sharks combined, to emulate how they function in the air and in the water. (Maybe Volkswagon made its new design for "The Bug" to emulate how Danny DeVito transversus New York City!)

But still, the spider droid looks weak. If I was General Veers in that universe, I wouldn't buy it for my forces. Balmorra's heavy weapons industry that furnishes the AT-AT's and AT-ST's, and before that AT-PT's and from the looks of it, the Republic's battle walkers we just saw in the new trailer, seem made to be able to kick the tar out of anything Backtoid Armor makes! No wonder they are fighting to stay in business. "It kills Jedi" might make a strong 30 second commercial during the next Pod Race holo-cast.

[eliwankenobi]

after the 20 year hiatus of star wars, i was bouncing off the walls with excitement for episode 1. i did the whole camp-in-line-dressed-as-a-jedi-thing on opening day and was counting the seconds to get into the theater for our show. my initial reaction was "awesome!" - even despite jar-jar.
seeing it several more times was the problem. it was then that i noticed all the inconsistancies in the film. the first trilogy had it's fun, quirky little errors, but the story was so good - without being overwhelming - and we loved the characters - ewoks? - that these inconsistancies were easily overlooked. i found the inconsistancies in episode 1 glaring and distracting though: dry characters with no depth or energy, background characters standing like mannequins staring off into space, and the gungan/battle droid ground battle was just lame.
i recall an interview with george lucas a long time ago (possibly in a galaxy far, far away) where he was ripping on sci-fi/action movies that rely on effects to carry the story so the actors don't have to. i thought that was just the case with episode 1 - a blase, predictable story with too many effects.
now, with episode 2 on the immediate horizon, i'm wary going into the theater, wondering what to expect. i want a return to the day of a fun star wars movie with characters that we cared about and exciting effects that don't overwhelm us.
now i know a bunch of you out there will call me a blasphemer for uttering these words, but i'm just as big a fan as the next one, and i'm not afraid to say that episode 1 was disappointing.
time to turn that around. come on george, do us proud!

[stillakid]

Originally posted by eliwankenobi
after the 20 year hiatus of star wars, i was bouncing off the walls with excitement for episode 1. i did the whole camp-in-line-dressed-as-a-jedi-thing on opening day and was counting the seconds to get into the theater for our show. my initial reaction was "awesome!" - even despite jar-jar.
seeing it several more times was the problem. it was then that i noticed all the inconsistancies in the film. the first trilogy had it's fun, quirky little errors, but the story was so good - without being overwhelming - and we loved the characters - ewoks? - that these inconsistancies were easily overlooked. i found the inconsistancies in episode 1 glaring and distracting though: dry characters with no depth or energy, background characters standing like mannequins staring off into space, and the gungan/battle droid ground battle was just lame.
i recall an interview with george lucas a long time ago (possibly in a galaxy far, far away) where he was ripping on sci-fi/action movies that rely on effects to carry the story so the actors don't have to. i thought that was just the case with episode 1 - a blase, predictable story with too many effects.
now, with episode 2 on the immediate horizon, i'm wary going into the theater, wondering what to expect. i want a return to the day of a fun star wars movie with characters that we cared about and exciting effects that don't overwhelm us.
now i know a bunch of you out there will call me a blasphemer for uttering these words, but i'm just as big a fan as the next one, and i'm not afraid to say that episode 1 was disappointing.
time to turn that around. come on george, do us proud!


No one can disagree with you because everything you say is fact. Episode One was lame for all the reasons that you and everyone else talks about. Don't change a word of the above.

[Wolfwood319]

I was just as disappointed as the next fan after E1, but after 3 years, the movie has grown on me. I look forward to AOTC now with hopeful optimism. Even if it is par with E1 at this point, I don't think I'll mind, because I really like E1 now. Of course I hope it is better than E1.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Wolfwood319
Of course I hope it is better than E1.

It would take true effort to be worse.:rolleyes:

What has changed in your own mind to make Ep I "better?" Do you ignore the problems that are etched permenantly into celluloid or have you found a way to rationalize them out? I'm not trying to be facitious or a smart-***...I really want to know. Maybe the rest of us could go through some kind of Star Wars therapy.:)

[Wolfwood319]

For the most part I just ignore them and concentrate on the things I like. I just don't dwell on the problems when I watch the movie. I just watch it for what it is, a movie. Plain and simple. I don't compare it to anything else, especially the OT. I just take it as the first movie in a new trilogy.

I don't really try to rationalize the movie anymore and just take it for what it is. That's all the advice I can offer anyone. I've watched E1 a few times now in the last month, and I've really come to enjoy the movie for the most part. I don't try and sit there and don't try to think "oh, I would've done this to make it better" or "that isn't right, that's not the way it should be," etc. I've actually come to enjoy it more than ROTJ. I just can't stand ROTJ anymore really, it just doesn't "click" for me anymore.

[JediTricks]

Stilla, while you and I may agree with Eli-Wan there, it's not fact, there are many who disagree with us and it's their right. I don't have to agree with them to discuss the film though. :happy:

[mark2d2]

God, how I envy you people who can say The Phantom Menace "has grown on them." For me, the film (and I use that term very loosely) just gets worse everytime I try to watch it on DVD. Other than the opening shots, the Senate, and the big Jedi duel sequences --- I cannot abide this movie. It is just so utterly wretched it is just too flat out depressing for words. There is no magic to Episode I. No spark. It's just so Flat.

It is just bad, bad, bad.

I pray that Episode II is better. I agree though, Stillakid, it would take an act of SUPREME WILL to be worse.

Seriously, it can't get any worse than Episode I. That was the end.

[RooJay]

The only fear I have about Attack of the Clones is that i will be so excited when the Fox Fanfare plays when the movie starts that I will lose control of my bodily functions! That, and the possibility that I might've been right in thinking that George should've cast me as Anakin instead of that PUNK Christensen! - jk!:crazed:

[Wolfwood319]

The more and more I watch E1, (I'm watching it right now) the more and more I like it. I really can't explain it. I absolutely loathed this film when I first saw it, now its almost one of my favorites. I think seeing it in context with E2 will help as well. As a stand alone in the SW universe, it is pretty lacking. But by itself and (hopefully) when put with AOTC and E3, it'll look better. It just has a different feeling than the OT, and at first I hated it, now I like it though.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JediTricks
Stilla, while you and I may agree with Eli-Wan there, it's not fact, there are many who disagree with us and it's their right. I don't have to agree with them to discuss the film though. :happy:

Ok, so maybe I overstated it a bit, but he sounded like he was on the verge of apologizing for feeling that way and I wanted him to know that he wasn't alone.

On the other hand, I do believe that there are absolutes, even in something as subjective as art or writing, that make something "good" or "bad." That doesn't disqualify someone from liking it, but their appreciation of it doesn't undo the empirical evaluation of said art's quality.

TPM, for instance, is a poorly written story, in the context of all literature, with lacking character arcs and a plot in need of being tightened up in just about every scene. Relative to it's kin, it fails to follow established plot points.

As a work of art, it fails in almost every way...why? Because it set out to accomplish a specific task and didn't do it. Can people still like it? Of course. Does that mean that it was good? No. People like poorly "done" things all the time.

I'm reminded of my college studies, when my professor asked if anyone knew what the greatest failure in television programming was. The answer: Sesame Street. Who knew?! Why was it....is it, a failure? Because it was intended to attract lower class children from disadvantaged homes, primarily in the city. It didn't do that at all. Failure. However, it is still on the air because it did attract a totally different audience from the one that it meant to: middle and upper class white kids. Is the show good? Yeah! Is it a failure? Yeah. It didn't accomplish what it set out to do and neither did The Phantom Menace.

But, then again, I'm making this up as I go...;)

[Wolfwood319]

I disagree with you on the "absoluetes" in art in general. I think the defining characteristics of art is that there is no absolute in art. Everyone has their own opinions, viewpoints, likes and dislikes. The terms "good, bad, fair, poor," etc. are all subjuctive. To say that something is "good' or "bad" for certain is very shallow, IMO, because you are just one person with one perspective.

You say TPM has a poorly written story, and that is absolute. But even the term "poor" is relative. You may think its poor, that doesn't make it so for everyone else. Someone else may see the movie from a different viewpoint as you.

And as for accomplishing set tasks, who can say? What tasks did it set out to achieve? And who can say they did or did not attain those goals other than George Lucas.

Almost everything in this world is relative. No one can say for anything is good or bad for certain. The very essence of critique is relative.

[stillakid]

I knew that I was walking a fine line when I wrote that. Very true, the concepts of good, bad, indifferent are subjective by their very nature.

However, what I'm getting at is that there are recognized conventions that are used when an author sits down to write a story. Generally there is a point to be made, whether the author is setting out to just illicit an emotional response from the audience or actual action, as a documentary might do. To make that point, the author uses a variety of tools including Act Breaks (3 Acts being the most popular), Scenes (within the Acts), Characters (who represent a variety of points-of-view for the author to express his ideas), and Actions (which the Characters "do" or "say" to get across their "pov's" in order to express the author's ideas in order to illicit the desired response.)

The original Star Wars was textbook storywriting. All the Acts were present with well defined characters who were carried along by a plot that held audiences spellbound and continue to do so some 20 odd years later. The original 3 films formed their own 3 Act structure (which within themselves, contained 3 acts each) which were entirely interconnected without discrepencies of plot or character.

Enter Episode I, and Mr. Lucas introduced an entirely new set of plot elements and characters, which were at odds with the established continuity of the original films. If that were the only problem, I think that most people would have overlooked it and wouldn't have been as critical. But as it's own film, it had flaws in plot structure, character development, and dialogue. On the technical side, there were problems regarding casting, acting, and some of the special effects. It is these types of storytelling "conventions" that were lacking quality especially when compared with the previous Star Wars films and when compared with other "good" contemporary works.

So while a person might find enjoyment in The Phantom Menace, for instance, it does nothing to solve the inherent problems that exist with the film itself which make it an empirically measured poor motion picture.

Ep II may be better as a stand alone film, but if it continues to use the flawed elements that were established in Ep I (and it will), then it too will be cursed as a flawed work when viewed within the entire Star Wars story structure. This is why, if Mr. Lucas does not significantly alter the original trilogy to include references to Midichlorians and Qui Gon Jinn, then the Prequels and the Original Trilogy will be fundamentally at odds with one another and make them mutually exclusive.

[Wolfwood319]

I think that if the only problems one sees in TPM is the inclusion of things that contradict the OT, and from that form their basis of critiquing the movie, then they are missing out. I'm not saying anyone in particular views the movie this way, but I have met my share fare of "Diehard fanatics" who do nothing but say how "They would've made TPM better."

In terms of acting, yes a good portion of it was sub-par to the "standards'' that have been set forth of what good acting is. Some of it was rather quite "forced" IMO. Jake Lloyd and Hugh Quarshe specifically come to mind. But I thought that there was some good acting as well. Not to the quality of Denzel Washington in "Training Day" :rolleyes: but good. I also must say that much of the dialogue for Anakin still bothers me. I generally thought the character development was good for taking into account that TPM was a staging ground for the prequels in general. And since GL knew that 2 more movies were coming, he only told what needed to be told in the first installment of the story.

I thought the plot was generally good as well. Its no Godfather, but then again, very few movies are. I thought the pacing was excellent, and the movie flowed very well (something I thought ROTJ was lacking. :( )

As for internal technical problems, I can't comment on. Nothing in life goes smoothly, unfortunetaly.

But if you look at what "standards" the industry has set, you also have to look at the subjectiveness that is present. The Academy voted Denzel Washington "Best Actor" for Training Day. All I'm saying is that even though there are set "standards" as to what qualifies as "good" or as "bad" in films, television, books etc. doesn't make it a definitive measure. If everything was cut and dry, then there would be no reason to have so many critics. There are hundreds of film critics and they all give different reviews. Some liked TPM, the majority of them didn't. Where one sees problems in TPM, others might not.

You say that TPM is an empirically measured poor motion picture. I agree that the basis of quality these days is based on the majority's viewpoints. But remember, 1000 years ago, the majority of the people thought the world was flat. Just because the majority of people have a set basis of "good" or "bad," doesn't make them true.

Stillakid, you say that there is problems with TPM that make it inherently a "bad" movie, even though people can still like it. I say that the problems themselves are subjective and people have different opinions and viewpoints towards everything. The problems you see aren't definitive, they are relative as well, IMO.

[stillakid]

Hmm.

Let's see...

I think that there is a matter of perspective to be taken into account when it comes to any form of art and opinion of it.

It could be inferred by my previous posts that I feel that TPM was a bad movie because so many people didn't like it. Rather, I believe that many people didn't like it because it was a bad movie. It seems basic, but it is an important distinction to make.

Taking the example of the nature of the planet's shape isn't really a reliable comparison to make as many extraneous factors came into play in the period before Galileo (ie. religion, Copernician thought, etc.) More about that concept in a minute.

But regardless of that, I'm not suggesting that majority-rules when judging the quality of something. A majority-of-dissension is created by the sub-par work, not the other way around. However, having a large sampling of "critique" to study as a measured response to a work of art is just a way to quantify the opinions of others. The work is still an independent entity, sitting there with it's pluses and minuses which can be empirically evaluated.

Ahah! Now the crux of the problem. That evaluation comes not from people who critique, but rather from all the previous works that come before. Centuries of practice have defined what qualities of storytelling human-beings consider to be good or bad. "Good" qualities are recognized and emulated. Theoretically, "bad" qualities are culled out. (But Hollywood has a way of adding extraneous, there's that word again, baggage to the act of telling a story, which Lucas is not immune to.)True, it is constantly evolving, but one would be hard pressed to find someone who would enjoy the following story:

He coughed.

The End


Simplified? Sure. But the point is that it's a weak story. Who is "he?" Why did he cough? When? Where? Who cares? It's a story, to be sure, but not a very good one. The "accepted" conventions of "good" storytelling are missing. There's no beginning. No true end. No resolution. No second act. The character has no arc. We don't know how he feels about coughing or how other's might feel about him coughing. The questions go on and on. That's not the fault of the critics, rather the fault of the author, in this case me.

When dealing with a 2-hour story, an evaluation is much more involved and complicated, just as the writing should be. "Extraneous" emotions can get in the way of an honest evaluation. In the case of a Star Wars film, so many of us want to like it, that some people are willing to give Lucas the benefit of the doubt with excuses like, "he was just setting up the next two films" or something like that. Feelings like that get in the way of looking at a film for what it is, judging it on it's own merits. Which leads back to my postulate that despite a person's liking or disliking something, it doesn't change the original empirical evidence of a work's quality one way or another.

I think that it's great that people can find a way to like whatever they want to (aside from acts of pure evil, for example). Even Hitler had his fans (Eva Braun comes to mind), but that doesn't make what he did any better.

Oh, and a sincere thanks for the interesting discussion. You're forcing me to dig deep within myself to back up an unpopular opinion, which itself could be proof of your side! I may believe it to be a solid argument, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. But if that is true, then that means that I'm right! :crazed:

[Wolfwood319]

Ahh, Stillakid,

I never thought that you or anyone else did not like TPM because others did. That isn't exactly what I meant. What I was referring to, not just about TPM, but in general as you also stated, is that the basis of "good" or "bad'' comes from centuries worth of work. The general conception of what is "good" seems to evolve with human nature, as well it should.

Here is an example of what I am proposing; is Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet considered "good" because of what it is, or because of what has been thought about it? If Shakespeare never published or put into production any of his plays, and yesterday his written copy of Romeo and Juliet was found, would it still be considered good?

What I was trying to bring across with my "world is flat" statement is that the majority of people over time have somewhat defined what is considered ''good."

Ahah! Now the crux of the problem. That evaluation comes not from people who critique, but rather from all the previous works that come before. Centuries of practice have defined what qualities of storytelling human-beings consider to be good or bad. "Good" qualities are recognized and emulated. Theoretically, "bad" qualities are culled out.

An excellent point, but I disagree with you on one minor point. You say that evaluation of something today comes from the evaluations of things that came before it. I agree with this, but what I'm trying to say is that the evaluations of the things that came before were also just opinions of people.

Now granted, that being the same species, most people have a general basis for what is good and what is bad. But even your short story "He Coughed" could be taken as good by some people. Case in point is paintings that are all one color. If I saw a painting that was pure white, I wouldn't give it another look. But there are those out there that see it in a different light, and may see things in the painting that I don't.

You as well as I ask questions in reference to your story like "Who is he," and "why did he cough?" But others might see it and respond to you "Why do you need to know who 'he' is?" Now obviously this goes way deeper than analyzing a Star Wars movie, but the general idea is there.

All I'm saying is that the basis of what is considered when judging whether or not a body of work is "good" or not, is subjective. Why has one style of acting been generally conceived as good, and another style conceived as not so good?

"To assertain whether or not something is good, it has to be compared with what has previously been established." I'm looking beyond that and ask the question "why are some previous works considered good and others not?" What makes the general conception that the first Star Wars film is "good" whereas TPM was lacking?

You made the comment that "extraneous" emotions may get in the way of making an honest evaluation. Agreed, but what is an evaluation other than the emotions?

Or, you say that so many of us want to like it that we come up with a comprimise to like it (you may be right BTW. :p ) But using that same logic, could one not say that because of one's "previous thoughts of Star Wars, that anything other than your preconceived notion of what you think IS Star Wars, you will dislike automatically?"

Also, Stillakid, thank you too for the most engaging and interesting discussion I've had in a long time.:D And to any other forumite, jump in at any time!:D I'd love more than just 2 viewpoints on this discussion.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by Wolfwood319
You made the comment that "extraneous" emotions may get in the way of making an honest evaluation. Agreed, but what is an evaluation other than the emotions?

This seems to be the core of the issue. How does a human-being make an evaluation of anything? On the surface, our judgments seem to be based primarily on emotional response to something.

I myself stood out on a limb and said that I enjoyed the remake of Rollerball. Even though I knew on an intellectual level that the story was full of holes and the characters were one-dimensional and some of the dialogue was weak, the film as a whole struck an emotional chord in me that allowed me to enjoy it.

Despite my emotional enjoyment, however that didn't make the film any better when evaluated on the merits of what most people consider "good" elements of storytelling. Now, the filmmakers could argue that the film was a success despite the problems that so many people found with it, because a film of that type has the express purpose of illiciting an emotional response (adrenaline rush) from the audience. IF an audience member can allow himself to ignore(?) the problems while watching the film Rollerball, then I believe that it would be difficult to not manage to get caught up in the emotional rollercoaster.

Allowing yourself to keep those "extraneous" expectations and/or emotions out of the evaluation process is the biggest challenge of a fair critical review. Yes, emotional response is part of the puzzle here, but we have an emotional response in reaction to the work (of art). Our opinions do not create the basis of good or bad, we simply recognize "good" or "bad" that exists as it's own entity.

[SithDroid]

The main reason that IMO that TPM was disliked by many people was the flaw in continuity. I absolutley can't stand films that do not follow continuity. Midichlorians were poorly thought up and introduced at a time when they should not have been. Now is not the time to start making up stuff like that considering there is already a 20+ year history of them not being there. Plus the fact that the OT takes place AFTER TPM, makes it a little hard to explain them. This, by far, was the most horendous addition to the movie. There are also other inconsistencies with the OT such as, Why Tatooine? Surely if Luke was given to Anakins brother-in-law, then why doesn't Vader know about Luke and come after him sooner? The whole "virgin birth" theory. This has no place in the SW Universe. Trying to relate Anakin to Jesus is hardly a point GL should be making. Jar Jar Binks. Why was he in the films? Certainly a more well developed character could have been used instead of this slapstick childish humor driven "character."

I could go on and on about the flaws of the film, but I'll stop here.

stillakid, I hope that GL does not mess with the OT to include such references such as midichlorians, adding Jar Jar etc... If anything should be done a SPECIAL EDITION of TPM should be done to exclude the midichlorian issue and cut down on the childishness of Jar Jar. It would be much easier to fix one film with actors that are still somewhat the same looking, than trying to mess with the OT with actors that have aged 25 years. I hope that if GL decides to do something then it will be done to TPM.

Boy, as far as EP II, I hope that it is a good film. If not, I'll just expect the same for EP III.

[RooJay]

This might be a little off the subject, but Stillakid has reminded me of this theory that I've always held to. I have always felt that ones perception of a given film can be highly influenced by the perceptions of the person(s), and sometimes the audience they see it with. I've noted on several occassions thta when groups of people go to a film together, if one of those people has poor expectations of that film (warranted or not) then the other person will be less likely to enjoy the film. Further, I have been involved in situations where a person, having seen a particular film, will see it again with someone with high expectations and that will actually change that persons perception of the film. I myself have gone to the movies on occasion hoping to enjoy what was essentially a good movie, but that the audience at that particular showing is not very receptive. Perhaps some in the audience aren't paying attention (the cell phone crew and the talkers) or they just aren't as vocal as they could be (not laughing at the funny parts or not cheering at the appropriate moments. This seems to happen most often at the late show; maybe people are tired?) and God help you if you end up sitting next to one of those people who refuses to susbend disbelief not matter what kind of film they're seeing or how samll the infraction ("Oh, that could NEVER happen! Not even in the context of this film! WORST...MOVIE...EVER!). In these instances I have found myself really wanting to like a particular film, but just not being able to really invest emotionally; only to find that on second viewing I am better able to enjoy the movie because of the reactions of whomever I see it with. Case in point: How many of us have met someone who "saw Star Wars, but didn't see what was so great about it" only to have that person become a convert after we (being as passionate about it as we are) watch it with them? My point is that our appreciation of a given film can very easily, and often is, influenced by outside forces. I always try to be very objective about every film I see, and always hold of my impressions until after. We go to the movies to be entertained. I just wish we all would let that happen, and stop worrying what the critics say.

"No one should go to the movies unless he believes in heroes." - John Wayne

My theory is not airtight, but it IS my impression and I think it makes a lot of sense. I'd also like to add that (I think because of this) spoilers never spoil it for me, and while I take a films criticisms into account I never let it color my impressions of a film I haven't seen. The fun for me is in the journey not the destination.

[RooJay]

Originally posted by SithDroid
The main reason that IMO that TPM was disliked by many people was the flaw in continuity. I absolutley can't stand films that do not follow continuity. Midichlorians were poorly thought up and introduced at a time when they should not have been. Now is not the time to start making up stuff like that considering there is already a 20+ year history of them not being there. Plus the fact that the OT takes place AFTER TPM, makes it a little hard to explain them. This, by far, was the most horendous addition to the movie. There are also other inconsistencies with the OT such as, Why Tatooine? Surely if Luke was given to Anakins brother-in-law, then why doesn't Vader know about Luke and come after him sooner?

You make some valid points, but I have to disagree. I tend to think that there was not a 20= year history of midichlorians not being there, but that midichlorians just hadn't been mentioned during that time. It is not hard to think that Obi Wan and Yoda just didn't feel it neccessary to teach Luke about midichlorians. Really, what would it had served him to know? The three of them already knew Luke was very strong in the force; I don't think any of them would've deemed it neccessary to prove it. In fact, it's not hard to believe that they did teach him about it off camera (we all know Lukes training took a lot longer than the handful of moments we saw on screen). Sure you can all make the argument that we KNOW this didn't happen because uncle George hadn't thought of midichlorians during the original trilogy, but the fact is...he thought of it now. In my opinion it fits. Mind you, I'm not saying I particularly like the idea of midichlorians because I really think we could've done without this particular invention. The fact of the matter is this: as much as we want to make Star Wars ours, it really belongs to George. It's HIS story, and we can either choose to listen to it or not.
Why Tattooine? Why not? I think it's safe to assume to that, whatever occurs there in the next movie and in Episode 3, Anakin decides he NEVER wants to go back. If you had been born into slaver would you want to revisit that past? Regardless of what some fans are saying online, it is safe to assume that Anakin has NO clue that he even has children; therefore, why would he go looking for them? Yes, Owen is his step-brother, but by all accounts they spend probably less than ten minutes of screen time with each other (probably not more than a day or two in real time). Owen's father WAS married to Anakin's mother, but they are essentially strangers. I even have a theory about this regarding Luke keeping his father's name and being left in Owen's care that I will probably post later.
In my humble opinion, there really are no inconsistencies between the original trilogy and the prequels. I think all can be easily explained if you're willing to accept that you have no control over it. I enjoy quoting Joseph Campbell, so here goes: "We must be willing to give up the life (movie) have (want) in order that we may have the life (movie) that is waiting for us.";)

[stillakid]

Originally posted by RooJay

In fact, it's not hard to believe that they did teach him about it off camera

This is the exact reason why the entire concept of Midichlorians is bunk. I've mentioned it many times before and I'll do it again here...a movie is written not to impart information to the characters within it, rather to the audience that is watching it. Characters are not real people, rather they represent Points-of-View toward the primary theme or plotline of the story at hand.

So, to imply that a story element is valid because it might very well have been mentioned off-screen doesn't hold water within the context of storytelling.

Yes, let's assume for a brief moment that Star Wars is not fiction, rather a filmed and edited home movie of an actual event then there might be an argument for what you're suggesting. However, it isn't.

The audience is the target of any and all information that is necessary to express the desired story in as coherent a manner as possible.

Midichlorian's and Qui Gon Jinn were both absent from the established continuity of the original trilogy. In and of itself, that isn't a problem. Adding new and interesting elements to a growing story is part of the fun. However, any new elements must remain faithful to the established continuity or else the entire fabric of the tale is in peril.

[bigbarada]

I agree that Midichlorians and Qui-Gonn are the two pieces of the puzzle that just don't fit right now when you consider the OT. But if you think about it, who was the only character in Ep1 who seemed to really believe in Midichlorians? Qui-Gonn.

The Jedi Council seemed less than impressed with Anakin's midi-count so who knows? Maybe something will be revealed in Ep2 or 3 to explain this.

[odb]

I would like to think that the midichlorians theory is bunk. I would also like to think that Qui Gon invented the whole idea in order to help Anakin understand how he can harnass the force ( he is only nine years old after all). I think that would lend some credability to his character rather than putting the whole idea down at his character being mad and deluded.

Ep1 was not a traditional movie. It has similarities with LOTR in that it is the first part of a trilogy. Therefore plot, character development, continuity and story shouldn't really be judged until we've seen all three films, then we can hole pick or complain about unresolved issues.

P.S. I've finished ranting now please feel free to criticise.

[RooJay]

Originally posted by stillakid


This is the exact reason why the entire concept of Midichlorians is bunk. I've mentioned it many times before and I'll do it again here...a movie is written not to impart information to the characters within it, rather to the audience that is watching it.

BUT...midichlorians were not a central part of the plot, but rather a plot device that in my opinion just wouldn't have required or even neccessarily warranted repeating if Lucas HAD made the entire saga in order. How many times during the original trilogy was it metioned that the Millenium Falcon made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs? After the first mention we got the impression that it was a pretty cool ship and Han was a pretty cool captain. I know most fans don't like the midichlorians, I'm not to keen on the idea myself, but they are there and we have to accept that. The monster really doesn't go away just because you close your eyes.

[RooJay]

Now that I've spent so much time trying to debunk supposed inconsistencies, I'd like to bring up another point: If Jedi are not allowed to love, and midichlorians have to do with blood and are quite obviously passed on from father (and presumably mother) to child, then where do little Jedi babies come from? Learning that Jedi reproduce ONLY through artificial insemination would be too creppy for me!

[SithDroid]

Okay, I've discussed the whole midichlorian thing in many other threads, so here I go again.

First, I'll quote the OT.

ANH
Luke: "The Force?"
Ben: "Well the Force is what gives a jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together."

ESB
Yoda: "For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it. Makes it grow. It's energy surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous bengs are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the force around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere. Yes, even between the land, and the ship."

Now TPM:
Anakin: "I've been wondering, what are midichlorians?"
Qui-Gon: "Midichlorians are microscopic lifeforms that reside within all living cells."
Anakin: "They live inside me?"
Qui-Gon: "Inside your cells, yes. And we are symbiants (sp?) with them."
Anakin: "Symbiants?"
Qui-Gon: "Lifeforms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midichlorians life couldn't exist and we would have no knowledge of the force. They continually speak to us telling us the will of the Force."
Anakin: "I don't understand?"
Qui-Gon: "When you learn to quiet your mind you'll hear them speaking to you."

Ok, now that I got that out of the way here goes the reasoning.

In ANH Luke straight up asks Obi-Wan what the force is and he replies with the quote above. Also Yoda adds to Obi-Wans description. If Midichlorians were the intent all along then why didn't Obi-Wan in ANH say, "Well the Force is created by these creatures that live inside of us. They talk to us and they form an energy field for all living things." SEE how corny that would sound. So does that mean that Obi-Wan and Yoda LIED to Luke? I don't think so, just GL trying to do some revising.

Also Yoda says Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. So how does that make sense seeing as the midichlorians are an ORGANIC LIFEFORM that reside within this CRUDE MATTER. I beleive Yoda was hinting at a persons "soul", so what are his views on the midichlorians then. That they are disgusting?

Also Qui-Gon says that without midiclorians that life couldn't exist. It seems to me that this would have been covered in some Biology class in the SW universe seeing as the midichlorians are the only reason anyone is alive. If they know what cells are, certainly they have microscopes to see these so called "midichlorians." I'm just trying to explain it the way GL intended it to be explained, using scientific reasoning.

I'm done for now.

[RooJay]

Originally posted by SithDroid
In ANH Luke straight up asks Obi-Wan what the force is and he replies with the quote above. Also Yoda adds to Obi-Wans description. If Midichlorians were the intent all along then why didn't Obi-Wan in ANH say, "Well the Force is created by these creatures that live inside of us. They talk to us and they form an energy field for all living things." SEE how corny that would sound. So does that mean that Obi-Wan and Yoda LIED to Luke? I don't think so, just GL trying to do some revising.

Also Yoda says Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. So how does that make sense seeing as the midichlorians are an ORGANIC LIFEFORM that reside within this CRUDE MATTER. I beleive Yoda was hinting at a persons "soul", so what are his views on the midichlorians then. That they are disgusting?

Also Qui-Gon says that without midiclorians that life couldn't exist. It seems to me that this would have been covered in some Biology class in the SW universe seeing as the midichlorians are the only reason anyone is alive. If they know what cells are, certainly they have microscopes to see these so called "midichlorians." I'm just trying to explain it the way GL intended it to be explained, using scientific reasoning.

I'm done for now.
Nothing in Phantom Menace states that midichlorians create the force, and it sounds to me that Qui-Gon explains to Anakin that they are what makes it possible for living things to INTERACT with the force. Again, Luke would not neccessarily have NEEDED to know this.

[mark2d2]

Despite my many misgivings with TPM, I have never thought that the introduction of Qui Gonn and midichlorians in any way are problematic as far as continuity.

Why would Qui Gon be brought up? He's dead. Long gone. What's Obiwan going to say? "Actually, the guy who taught me the ways of the force bit it long ago, so I'm sending you to this Yoda guy. He's all that there is left..." Besides, Yoda DOES instruct Obiwan --- the scene where he and Yoda talk near the end implies that they are very aquainted with one another. And I think all the Jedi pass on what they have learned. It's not as if Qui Gon tutored Obiwan in a vacuum.

The same is true about midichlorians. What do you guys want? For Obiwan to test Luke with a blood sample? Why is that necessary? Besides, how do you know that they don't already do that in Episode III? Or that it is just a simple biological fact that the HIGH count is always passes on genetically. We don't know at this point.

It boogles me that people go on and on about this when they totally forgive the flawed script and crappy performances. There was a lot to get angry about with this film --- but these two issues just weren't that big of a deal to me. The reason I disliked TPM was that it was boring. Flat. And woefully predictable with characters that if they didn't bore me --- went massively out of their way to annoy me. JarJar and his me stepsa in da poodoo (lack there of) humor was the BIGGEST problem with the film.

[RooJay]

I just had another idea. For those of you who read the New Jedi Order books...maybe the Yuuzhan Vong, coming from outside the galaxy, have NO midichlorians. That would explain why they have no presence in the Force; they are incappable of interacting with it! It would make sense, taking into consideration what we know of the Force from Yoda, Obi Wan, AND Qui-Gon, that all living things in the Star Wars galaxy have at least SOME midichlorians, and that Force users just have more (allowing them greater interaction with the force). Maybe Luke, as the Jedi Master in the New Jedi Order, is on the verge of discovering midichlorians and their role in the Force and the Jedi order. You have to admit that's an interesting notion.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by RooJay

Nothing in Phantom Menace states that midichlorians create the force, and it sounds to me that Qui-Gon explains to Anakin that they are what makes it possible for living things to INTERACT with the force. Again, Luke would not neccessarily have NEEDED to know this.

Oh brother, how many times do we have to answer the same question?

Knowing what we know about the state of the galaxy and the near defunct Jedi in the OT, what would be the rationale for Obi Wan and Yoda to not tell Luke? Instead of using all of that wishy washy intangible language, they could've come right and told him that he's got a gazillion little things inside of him that are a direct conduit to his controlling the Force. Luke's the last Jedi for cryin out loud. Why put the fate of the galaxy in jeopardy when they could have helped Luke get from point A to point B that much faster? Another silly bit of reasoning to rationalize their existence.

But, as mentioned, we are stuck with them throughout the prequels anyway. I'm sure that we'll hear the word at least once in Ep2 (and see Jar Jar as well:sur: ). He established a new line of reasoning with Ep I that doesn't jive with the OT. The only way out of it is to reedit IV, V, and VI.

One more thing, this little bit about The Lord of the Rings. It's not the first time we've seen this as an excuse for Lucas's mistake. What is it about being a single film in a series that excuses the filmmaker from creating a coherent script that is continuitous throughout? Ep I is a single film, existing on it's own and also as part of a greater whole. It has responsibility to both masters. So to write off bad filmmaking just because "everything will be explained later" is poor evaluation by anyone's standards.

[RooJay]

Thanks mark2d2! You and I are definitely on the same wavelength here! Furthermore, Qui-Gon obviously knew that Anakin was very strong in the Force, and it seems he only tested his blood just to see HOW high his midichlorian count was (having known already that it would be quite high). Since Obi Wan could already sense Luke was very strong in the Force (not to mention having known who his father was) I doubt that if he'd tested Lukes blood and not found a high enough midichlorian count that he'd have said "Oops! Guess the galaxy doesn't have a new hope after all!". The simple fact as I see it is that midichlorians didn't matter in the context of the events of the original trilogy.

[RooJay]

Originally posted by stillakid


Oh brother, how many times do we have to answer the same question?

Knowing what we know about the state of the galaxy and the near defunct Jedi in the OT, what would be the rationale for Obi Wan and Yoda to not tell Luke? Instead of using all of that wishy washy intangible language, they could've come right and told him that he's got a gazillion little things inside of him that are a direct conduit to his controlling the Force. Luke's the last Jedi for cryin out loud. Why put the fate of the galaxy in jeopardy when they could have helped Luke get from point A to point B that much faster? Another silly bit of reasoning to rationalize their existence.

But, as mentioned, we are stuck with them throughout the prequels anyway. I'm sure that we'll hear the word at least once in Ep2 (and see Jar Jar as well:sur: ). He established a new line of reasoning with Ep I that doesn't jive with the OT. The only way out of it is to reedit IV, V, and VI.

One more thing, this little bit about The Lord of the Rings. It's not the first time we've seen this as an excuse for Lucas's mistake. What is it about being a single film in a series that excuses the filmmaker from creating a coherent script that is continuitous throughout? Ep I is a single film, existing on it's own and also as part of a greater whole. It has responsibility to both masters. So to write off bad filmmaking just because "everything will be explained later" is poor evaluation by anyone's standards.
:crazed: I hope we're "discussing" here and not ARGUING! LOL
Stillakid, what you are saying is true...from a certain point of view, but I still believe it's quite obvious that even though Obi Wan had no reason NOT to tell Luke about midichlorians, he also had no reason TO tell him. It would not have helped Luke take down the Empire OR restore balance to the force. Remember, Qui-Gon only told Anakin about them because he asked.

[SithDroid]

Originally posted by RooJay
It would not have helped Luke take down the Empire OR restore balance to the force. Remember, Qui-Gon only told Anakin about them because he asked.

Yeah, well Luke asked what the Force was and Obi-Wan didn't tell him about the midichlorians and their role. So what you just said doesn't hold water.

Originally posted by stillakid

Oh brother, how many times do we have to answer the same question?

Knowing what we know about the state of the galaxy and the near defunct Jedi in the OT, what would be the rationale for Obi Wan and Yoda to not tell Luke? Instead of using all of that wishy washy intangible language, they could've come right and told him that he's got a gazillion little things inside of him that are a direct conduit to his controlling the Force. Luke's the last Jedi for cryin out loud. Why put the fate of the galaxy in jeopardy when they could have helped Luke get from point A to point B that much faster? Another silly bit of reasoning to rationalize their existence.

But, as mentioned, we are stuck with them throughout the prequels anyway. I'm sure that we'll hear the word at least once in Ep2 (and see Jar Jar as well ). He established a new line of reasoning with Ep I that doesn't jive with the OT. The only way out of it is to reedit IV, V, and VI.

One more thing, this little bit about The Lord of the Rings. It's not the first time we've seen this as an excuse for Lucas's mistake. What is it about being a single film in a series that excuses the filmmaker from creating a coherent script that is continuitous throughout? Ep I is a single film, existing on it's own and also as part of a greater whole. It has responsibility to both masters. So to write off bad filmmaking just because "everything will be explained later" is poor evaluation by anyone's standards


I couldn't agree with you more stillakid, except for one little thing. The only way to fix this whole thing is to fix EP I. It would be a TON easier to get rid of the whole midichlorian issue there instead of messing with the OT. Plus I don't think the FANS would like the OT being messed with a second tme around. We already have a ton of people who hate the Greedo shot first part, so introducing the midichlorians in the OT would IMHO extremely upset the Fans, myself included.

The reason that midichlorians are bad idea is because it is just poor storytelling. stillakid and myself are both writers, so we notice the inconsistencies in the script. I always think about continuity in my stories and screenplays that I write. GL just DIDN'T DO HIS HOMEWORK. I'm tired of people making excuses for this. I notice it, so it bothers me. If other people can dismiss it, then more power to them, but I don't like it when the integrity of a story is jeopardized because someone forgot about continuity. If movies are supposed to reflect life, then how can life be non-consistent. I'm tired of debating this topic. It has been beaten to the ground over and over and over again. Let us drop the whole midichlorian issue. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe.

[Wolfwood319]

I've only read Vector Prime and bits and pieces of other NJO books, but that theory that the Vong don't have midichloreans actually makes quite a lot of sense now that I think about it.

I also agree with Mark2D2, Qui-Gon wouldn't have necissarily needed to be mentioned in the OT to explain his presence in TPM. I really agree with everything Roojay has said up until this point, so I won't reiterate on it.

One last thing; when telling a story out of order, as with Star Wars your given some freedom as to what you can tell with the past. Just because something isn't mentioned in the OT, doesn't mean it cannot exist in the prequels.

[mark2d2]

As a fellow writer myself, I, too, was very disappointed by the lack of effort put towards the writing. It was just like nobody thought that it mattered. Which to me was sad. How could they not notice this on the set? I mean, come on! It must've been so obvious.

Sorry, but I know I could have "saved" The Phantom Menace. Frankly, though, that wouldn't have been that big of an accomplishment. Any aspiring writer with even the slightest trace of talent could have given that script a much needed polish.

It was just that bad. There was no wit. No humor. No tension. It was just there. I never thought I could be bored by a Star Wars film. But, well, I guess there really is a first time for everything.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by SithDroid

I couldn't agree with you more stillakid, except for one little thing. The only way to fix this whole thing is to fix EP I. It would be a TON easier to get rid of the whole midichlorian issue there instead of messing with the OT. Plus I don't think the FANS would like the OT being messed with a second tme around. We already have a ton of people who hate the Greedo shot first part, so introducing the midichlorians in the OT would IMHO extremely upset the Fans, myself included.

The reason that midichlorians are bad idea is because it is just poor storytelling. stillakid and myself are both writers, so we notice the inconsistencies in the script. I always think about continuity in my stories and screenplays that I write. GL just DIDN'T DO HIS HOMEWORK. I'm tired of people making excuses for this. I notice it, so it bothers me. If other people can dismiss it, then more power to them, but I don't like it when the integrity of a story is jeopardized because someone forgot about continuity. If movies are supposed to reflect life, then how can life be non-consistent. I'm tired of debating this topic. It has been beaten to the ground over and over and over again. Let us drop the whole midichlorian issue. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe.

I made a request at some point to have Lucas recall all copies of TPM and start over again. That isn't about to happen, I'm afraid. :( I'm basing my predictions on the precedent that he has set with redoing past works (read: the original trilogy) Regardless of what concoctions he comes up with in the next two films, aside from TPM being a 2 hour dream sequence, the foundation that he has laid down will always conflict with the original trilogy until the day he alters one or the other (prequels or the original trilogy). They are mutually exclusive at this point and bear little resemblance to one another aside from the title and the opening scroll.

[Tonysmo]

After reading all those posts, I just had to give my take.

I remember vividly when I first saw EP1. I was white knuckle gripping the seat in theater while Anikin raced that pod. It was the coolest movie of the year for me.
Now I have the DVD, before that I had the video, and before that, yes, a screener...

I knew walking into EP1 though that it was going to be classic Lucas film. We see the good guy, we meet the bad guy, we have a battle, they blow a deflector shield, good guys win... He has done that in every movie.
Did it bother me that Maul was introduced like a WWF character? yes. Does it bother me that Lucas put Mauls face on every freakin package to have him play 10 minutes in the film? yes. Did Jar Jar bother me? not really. Did it kill me to see an awesome actor such as Samuel Jackson do so poorly with being a Jedi? (please O please be better in EP2 ) I thought he showed WAY to much negative emotion when dealing with Jinn and Obiwan. Did it bother me that Anikin was virgin born? yeah, Lucas should know better..

so yes, even though there were parts that disturbed me I still think it was the coolest movie of the year.

lookit the positives of it. Did Ewing Mcgregor not play Obiwan FREAKIN EXCELLENT?? He sounded just like obiwan should have..


gee... I guess thats it huh?

well I STILL think it was an awesome movie..

( maybe somehow they can get legolas ( LOTR ) to play a role in EP3.. He was a bada## ) justa thought...

smo

[bigbarada]

Here's how I see it, no one who hates midichlorians is going to be convinced to accept them on these forums. No one who likes or tolerates them is going to be convinced to hate them. So we should let a dead dog lie and move on.

I thoroughly enjoyed Ep1 upon first viewing and the other ten times I watched it in the theater. Each time I watched it, it was from a genuine interest in the film and amazement at what they were able to accomplish special effects wise. I really saw no problems with the story other than that it moved slower than other Star Wars films (but was nowhere near as boring as ROTJ). Even in the slow parts, we had Jar Jar to liven things up a little. And yes, I thought he was genuinely funny.

If someone likes TPM for whatever reason, whether it be because of the cool FX, the production design, or the story or characters, they should not be told that they are somehow wrong for liking it because it was "so obviously a flawed film." Not everyone sees or cares about the flaws.

Personally, I liked TPM for the characters and settings. Naboo is one of my favorite Star Wars locales and some of the most visually interesting characters in all of Star Wars come out of TPM, IMHO (Maul, Jar Jar, Sebulba, Watto, Queen Amidala, etc.)

However, I never really cared for Luke's whole journey in the OT, it was the most boring part of the saga. I was always more interested in what Han Solo or Darth Vader were doing.

One line in the OT that could be used in defense of midichlorians (even though everyone will say I am full of it:rolleyes: ):

Luke in ROTJ said to Leia, "The Force is strong in my family. My father has it, I have it, my....sister has it."

This to me always meant that the force was some kind of inherited trait and that not everyone had access to that trait. Thus midichlorians were not too much of a stretch when I first heard of them in Ep1. Soooo.......I like them! (quickly runs for cover)

[stillakid]

Originally posted by bigbarada
Soooo.......I like them! (quickly runs for cover)

;)

[bigbarada]

That's it, you're buying me a new Abba T-Shirt, stillakid!

:eek:

Oh wait...did I say "Abba?" I meant Iron Maiden, yeah.:)

[RooJay]

Originally posted by SithDroid


Yeah, well Luke asked what the Force was and Obi-Wan didn't tell him about the midichlorians and their role. So what you just said doesn't hold water.

The reason that midichlorians are bad idea is because it is just poor storytelling. stillakid and myself are both writers, so we notice the inconsistencies in the script. I always think about continuity in my stories and screenplays that I write. GL just DIDN'T DO HIS HOMEWORK. I'm tired of people making excuses for this. I notice it, so it bothers me. If other people can dismiss it, then more power to them, but I don't like it when the integrity of a story is jeopardized because someone forgot about continuity. If movies are supposed to reflect life, then how can life be non-consistent. I'm tired of debating this topic. It has been beaten to the ground over and over and over again. Let us drop the whole midichlorian issue. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe.

You're right...but as you stated Luke asked Obi Wan about the FORCE, not about midichlorians. Anakin asked SPECIFICALLY about midichlorians.
By the way, I happen to be a writer also, and I have absolutely no problem seeing how this does indeed work. Please don't be blinded by your biases about the concept of midichlorians. Both the OT AND Phantom Menace still hold up with midichlorians involved, and DO NOT contradict each other. Lucas should not have to alter either under any circumstance. Besides, as I've stated before, this is HIS vision. Would you demand some of the great historical works of art be altered because you didn't agree with portions of them? Lucas has decided that midichlorians have a place in HIS story, therefore we have no choice but to acknowledge them, OR just turn our heads. I could never imagine someone saying that the Sistine Chapel should be repainted because they don't believe in God, or that they don't like the look on the angel's faces.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by RooJay


You're right...but as you stated Luke asked Obi Wan about the FORCE, not about midichlorians. Anakin asked SPECIFICALLY about midichlorians.
By the way, I happen to be a writer also, and I have absolutely no problem seeing how this does indeed work. Please don't be blinded by your biases about the concept of midichlorians. Both the OT AND Phantom Menace still hold up with midichlorians involved, and DO NOT contradict each other. Lucas should not have to alter either under any circumstance. Besides, as I've stated before, this is HIS vision. Would you demand some of the great historical works of art be altered because you didn't agree with portions of them? Lucas has decided that midichlorians have a place in HIS story, therefore we have no choice but to acknowledge them, OR just turn our heads. I could never imagine someone saying that the Sistine Chapel should be repainted because they don't believe in God, or that they don't like the look on the angel's faces.

First I'd like to say that as a majority of my posts on these boards have involved the topic of Midichlorians, it seems only fitting that my 1000th post involve them.

Secondly, they DO contradict one another. There have been enough posts written about this by a variety of people and many writers included to make it a foregone fact. If someone chooses to find ways to rationalize their existence, that's all well and good, if it helps someone enjoy the saga more. I'm all for it. However, it doesn't alter the problems that were inherently created by their eleventh-hour introduction into the storyline. Suggesting that Obi Wan didn't tell Luke about them just because he didn't specifically ask is splitting hairs. So much of the original trilogy dialogue revolving around the Force does nothing to suggest the presence of these little buggers. At the very least, Yoda would have mentioned them at any point on Dagobah if Lucas had dreamed them up by 1978. It is excrutiatingly clear that he hadn't.

Yes, it is his saga, yes we have to live with any elements he decides to drop in there, but it doesn't necessarily make them all correct as you suggest. Let's suppose that a major element is dropped into Ep 2 or 3 that nobody hears about beforehand. You walk into the theater, the opening scroll goes by, then on board a flying saucer, John F. Kennedy walks through the door followed by Minnie Pearl. The flying saucer is chasing a Star Destroyer toward planet Earth which is orbited by a giant slice of American cheese. The rest of Boba Fett's family flies in to bombard the cheese with millions of those tie wrap things that keep our toys inside their packages. Minnie Pearl says "Howdiiiie," just before pushing a big red button on top of her R2 unit's head which detonates a bomb (one of those goofy cartoon ones with the wick on the top) that blows up the Fett clan.

By your account, we should all just accept it as Lucas's work and continue on happily eagerly awaiting the release on DVD.

[SithDroid]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wolfwood319]

I think that some people (no one in particular, mind you) are so hell bent on discussing Midichloreans to death, that in fact, its all they think of when they watch E1.

Look, everyone has the right to their own opinions. Some may think that midichloreans won't work, others don't have at a problem with it. Others like TPM and think its a good film, others hate it and say its a bad film.

I personally don't think that one can "prove" TPM is a "good" or "bad" film, because by definition, those terms are relative. I see why some people don't like it, and why others do.

I also personally believe that just because something isn't mentioned in one film, that it can't exist in a "prequel" if you will. I don't personallyl like the idea of midichloreans, but I don't see their inclusion into the film as its "major downfall," if you will.

If someone likes TPM for whatever reason, whether it be because of the cool FX, the production design, or the story or characters, they should not be told that they are somehow wrong for liking it because it was "so obviously a flawed film." Not everyone sees or cares about the flaws.

BigBarada had a good point here. But I'll take it one further. I believe that flaws aren't definate. If something is flawed, it is the basis of people's opinions, especially when it comes to art.

Obviously, as BB stated, no one is going to change their mind one way or the other because of reading some post. But I think its important for everyone to respect each others opinions. Almost everything posted on these forums are opinions, not facts. And no one person's opinions are facts, no matter how much they want them to be.

[eliwankenobi]

wow, i never knew so many peops were so hell-bent about TPM over the midicloriwhatsits. yeah, it seems like some strange additional detail that GL decided to throw in to help "explain" the Force. Being a 25-year (wow! 25 years!!) SW fan, i thought i understood what the Force was all about through ben and yoda's explanations in the OT. Perhaps it was GL's reasoning that he needed to "explain" the force better, especially since TPM was diluted down to a be kiddie flick. yeah, it's inconsistant when compared to the OT, but whatever, it's GL's little bug.
if you want to rip on TPM, let's pick out some of the bigger issues:
obi-wan's constantly changing hair lengths
anakin's suddenly taller/shorter scenes
zombie-like background characters
sam jackson's mace windu stand-in
bad acting; bad dialogue; bad story
one of the most annoying things to me about TPM is how it's not the "beginning" as we all expected, but rather a point in which we're all dropped into another "in progress" story just like the OT. i'd like to see a back-story that explains the purpose of the trade federation; where sidious came from; why naboo was blockaded; etc.
to me, TPM was just a jumbled mass of coinsidences to establish key players. it didn't seem to have any point. the basic elements of any story is problem/solution. look at SW: rebels good, empire bad. it was established why the rebels were good and why the empire was bad. in the end, good won over bad. in TPM: naboo: ? trade federation: ? was the trade federation good or bad, and why? why was naboo blockaded, and what might they have done to provoke it? why was the chancellor so ignorant of said problem (??) in the senate meeting if it was he that dispatched the jedi in the beginning to broker a deal? why is anakin a slave? why tatooine? how convenient was that pod race the day after they landed with problems? why was there no dialogue between darth maul and obi-wan/gui-gon? i would think a jedi would ask a stranger why they're trying to kill them. and how evident is it that TPM follows the EXACT SAME story formula as ROTJ?
ok, i'm done.
despite all my grumblings, i'm eagerly awaiting AOTC. it is my simple hope that depsite the shortcomings of TPM, E2 will make us care about the characters and take us all back to the SW galaxy that we all feel we're a part of in one way or another.

[RooJay]

Just because a lot of people have written about how they don't like and don't think midichlorians should have been included doesn't make it truth. My argument speaks for itself. Like I've stated before, you are letting your own bias preclude the fact that there is absolutely no contradiction where midichlorians are concerned. Please remember, even I don't like the idea of their inclusion, but your arguments that they are out of place have NO validity whatsoever. I think if you look back, uncloud your mind, and actuallt READ what I have been saying all along, you will find that the points I have made regarding the subject ALL hold water. I'm not debating whether or not including midichlorians was a good idea, and I am, by no means, making up excuses for them having been included; what I am trying to say is that the do indeed fit into the story, and Lucas would not have to alter a single line of dialog in the original trilogy in order to intergrate the concept. YES, Phantom Menace had it's problems (I wholeheartedly agree!). YES, MANY fans thought midichlorians was a bad idea (I second that notion!), but the facts remain that midichlorians DO fit into what we know of the Force; regardless of our distaste. I'm with Eliwan, let's talk about some of the movie's REAL problems.

To address some of what Wolfwood has stated: I am not debating whether or not Phantom Menace is a bad film. Truly, that is subjective. What I am debating is that the idea of midichlorians somehow contradicts the original trilogy. This is obviously not the case. I dare anybody to actually take my previous posts into consideration and then explain to me where the contradiction lies. Please, keep in mind that whil you may think Phantom Menace failed as a film or succeeded, you may think midichlorians is the stupidest idea ever invented by man, but nothing we've been told about midichlorians even remotely contradicts what we've been told in the original trilogy. I'm with eliwan, let's talk about some of the movie's REAL problems.

If all else fails: let's just all be happy friends and fellow fans, and let's just agree to disagree, and then let's get back to eagerly awaiting Attack of the Clones.

[SithDroid]

This debate has gone on too long in other threads so no need to keep re-iterating the same thing over and over and to argue about this topic more than has already been stated.

Can a moderator please close this thread?

[bigbarada]

Let's look at what is considered a "good" film. The Godfather, won all kinds of awards and is considered to be one of the greatest movies of all time. Did I like it? Not really.

Ep1, bashed by almost every critic on the face of the earth, nominated for the worst sequel/prequel of all time. Did I like it? No, I loved it!

I could care less what some critic or screenwriter says about the "foregone facts" of TPM's flaws. When it all boils down to it, it is opinion and that's one thing you can't really argue.

I think this discussion is still relevent, SithDroid, especially since we are discussing possible fears for Ep2. That hinges greatly on what people thought of Ep1.

[mark2d2]

The problem with The Phantom Menace isn't that it doesn't measure up to "good" films --- it's that it doesn't (in my opinion) even come close to measuring up to the original Star Wars Trilogy. It is lacking in nearly every respect. The special effects are overblown and (again in my opinion) not nearly as great at Lucasfilm would like to believe. I'll take Greedo in a rubber mask any day to a CGI Watto. I'm sorry --- but to me, Watto is way too cartoon like. Yoda never looked like a puppet to me. Watto looks like he out to be in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. And so do alot of the creatures that were in the most recent trailer.

I hope that I am wrong.

[stillakid]

Taking a look at your post count, Roojay, I didn't take into account that you joined this discussion only recently, so I apologize for assuming that you were up to speed on all the arguments to the contrary. I went through the Forum search engine to find links to the many many many posts and threads concerning this topic but couldn't find them for some reason. If anyone else can help out with that, it would be great.

In any case, I don't want to run on too long with the pros and cons, as this isn't the thread for Midi's anyhow, but I'll do my best to summarize just why the concept of Midichlorians so clearly flies in the face of saga continuity. I'm sure I'll forget to include some of the great arguments that others thought of, so feel free to chime in.

The best place to begin is with ANH. There are two primary scenes in the first film where Midi's should have been mentioned plus a couple others that draw confusion because of their sudden inclusion into the storyline. The first two scenes to talk about are Ben and Luke discussing the Force on Tatooine and Ben and Luke again talking about it onboard the Falcon. The first problem is that Old Ben knows that the galaxy is in trouble. There are no more viable Jedi left. The "only hope" is Luke. Knowing that they don't have a lot of time to train the boy and that, presumably, a meeting between father and son is inevitable, it is highly unlikely that Old Ben wouldn't give Luke all the tools necessary to get him from naive farmboy to fully trained Jedi in as little time as possible. Old Ben says, "Search your feelings," which is about as undefined a learning tool as you could get. Why not just explain that there are little microscopic organisms (symbiotes) that can help facilitate the manipulation of the Force? This particular problem does not illustrate direct contradiction, but it is the first nail in the coffin as it is evidence to show that Lucas only recently dreamed Midichlorians up.

The best proof of Midichlorians being contradictory comes in ESB when Yoda describes the Force in a beautiful speech. This is Luke's training period, yet not once, never even alluded to, was the concept of Midichlorians. Why would that be? You could (and some have) opt to rationalize it by saying that he explained it all "offscreen." Supposing that is true, it's just poor storytelling skills if that were the case. But judging from the rest of the explanation that Lawrence Kasdan wrote, I doubt that he would have intentionally gone that route. He's just too good of a writer to make a lame decision like that.

But does their not being mentioned serve as proof of contradiction? Not exactly, but it should be enough for anyone. Luckily (?) we don't need to rely on those examples to prove the silliness of Midichlorians.

ALL of the interviews (print and tv) done pre 1990's of philosophers, critics, and Lucas himself, described the tale as standard hero epic. A young naive farmboy yearns for greatness and through a series of misadventures, is swept into a fantastic quest and ultimately saves the galaxy. It was designed so that anyone could aspire to be Luke. He was just like us, ordinary. But because of his internal fortitude, that he didn't know he had, he overcame great peril, external and internal, to become a hero and redeem his fallen father.

With the introduction of Midichlorians, all of that was blown out of the water. Now, instead of being ordinary, Luke is a super-human. He's got an advantage that none of us are capable of. It wasn't his internal strength that led him to success. He had help. From what? Billions of microscopic parasites who act as middlemen to the Force. You can't use the Force if you don't have enough of them. Everything that Yoda said about becoming a Jedi is misleading. It has nothing to do with "feeling the Force flow through you." Who needs that? All you gotta do is talk to your little friends.

sigh. There's tons more, and better written in all of those "lost" threads, but I'm not feeling particularly convincing at the moment. :) I'll keep looking for those other threads and maybe someone else can help. I recall one particularly humorous thread that we had going in which we rewrote the OT dialogue as it will have to be redone in order to make it all make sense. If only I could find it...

But, ultimately, if you want to take them at face value, then go ahead if that's what makes it remain enjoyable for you. The rest of us came to expect more from the saga and were disappointed by such an obvious lapse.

Since THX-1138, which was also panned by critics, TPM was the first script that Lucas decided to write without help from anyone. He just isn't a great writer. I remain cautiously optimistic that Ep II will be better as a movie because he brought Jonathan Hale as co-writer. GL obviously took heed of the criticism he received and quickly figured out how to avoid it for AOTC. But he's still established a weak foundation for the next two films. Alas, we'll see how it goes.

[mark2d2]

Again, Stillakid, I think that is plausible to assume that such a conversation could occur off camera. There is a lot of time when this could be brought up. In the landspeeder on the way to Mos Eisley for example. To have Ben explain all about Midi's to Luke on camera would be repetitious to the audience and well dull.

I am also biased -- because, frankly, the whole midichlorians/virgin birth are ideas I'd rather just forget which is easy since I always skip the ENTIRE tattooine portion of Episode I.

Heck, I may just Lop TPM out the story all together. As far as I am concerned, the Saga can just as well begin with Episode II -- if that one is good. Episode I is just . . . well . . . kind of pointless.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by mark2d2


I am also biased -- because, Frankly, the whole midichlorians/virgin birth are ideas I'd rather just forget which is easy since I always skip the ENTIRE tattooine portion of Episode I.



That's funny! That's usually the time I get up to make a sandwich. :) Funny thing is, when I get back, I haven't missed anything.

I eagerly await the technology to reedit TPM into something watchable. I might have to include a couple of digitized scenes of my own making to bridge the gaps (scenes that should've been in there in the first place).

My biggest frustration is that it was sooooo close to being good. If he would've just given it to, well, just about anybody, they would've questioned all the problems and streamlined that 2 hour mistake into a decent compadre to the OT. Oh well....

[mark2d2]

Did you ever see The Phantom Edit? I never did, but from what I heard all of the changes were ones that I had thought of as well. I'd still love to check it out sometime.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by mark2d2
Did you ever see The Phantom Edit? I never did, but from what I heard all of the changes were ones that I had thought of as well. I'd still love to check it out sometime.

No. Couldn't find it. It'll resurface someday, if I don't make one in the meantime. But if he includes Midi's in EP II and III, I've got alot of work to do. And I have to someone remove Qui Gon Jinn and give poor Obi Wan all his history back.

[stillakid]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I am exceptionally curious about this new "it happened offscreen" defense that has recently popped up. Could someone please explain just why this would be considered as a valid filmmaking technique to explain incongrueties?

For instance, the hero in the new version of Rollerball, skates around the entire time without his chinstrap fastened. This wouldn't appear to be a big deal, except that a major plot point is that another player has his chinstrap intentionally cut by the bad guys ane that ultimately leads to his death. So on the surface, this appears to be a goof, however, if we were to take this recent line of reasoning, we might concoct a "missing" scene in which our hero is given special dispensation from properly securing his headgear and that no one on the court will take advantage of the situation. Stupid, huh. That's what I thought. Why should it work for TPM then?

signed
Just Wondering in the Catskills.

[SithDroid]

Originally posted by stillakid
I don