Mace's Death

[oafy-wan]

I know everyone's going to call me nuts for this, but I was just thinking about Jango, Boba, and Mace.

Rumors for Episode 2 show that Jango will be decapitated by Mace. In an interview Samuel said he will return for Ep. 3 but like all Jedi, he's going to die. This is where I think I'm nuts.

Maybe Boba kills Mace out of revenge for Jango. Perhaps Boba helps Anakin kill the Jedi and that's how they knew each other in "Empire". I know Boba is a little boy, but it is a shocking possibility.

Of course, that's my theory.

[Wolfwood319]

Actually, I think Boba Fett is going to be around 16 in III.

I had the same feeling a while back when they first started talking about Boba Fett in EII. It kind of makes sense then, that Boba Fett is a reliable weapon for Vader if needed. Hence ESB.

[Rollo Tomassi]

I brought this up in "Conflicts between jedi and love" But I think After Obi Wan and Anakin have their big battle in ACT II , padme is trying to escape Coruscant with the twins (that Vader doesn't know about.) The Jedi Temple has been invaded and only Mace, Yoda and Obi Wan make it out. (very cool fight scene where Vader takes out Plo Koon, Ki Adi Mindi and Eeth Koth in a 3 on 1 battle). The three remaining jedi realize all hope resides in the Skywalker children, so Mace and Obi Wan act as Decoys while Yoda gets padme off planet. Mace runs into a legion of Jedi hunting Stormtroopers and a vengeful 16 year old Boba Fett. After a climactic battle Mace "allows" himself to become one with the force (a la Ben in Episode IV) which to Fett appears as if he "disintegrated." Vader, who wanted Windu alive because he knows where Padme is, forever holds it against the young Fett and when ever he hires him he admonishes him with "No Disintegrations."

Meanwhile decoy Obi Wan runs into then Dark Lord himself and after being easily overpowered, Vader lets him go (because technically he doesnt know where Yoda and padme are) on the condition "he is never to come back" it is his final act of compassion for his former mentor...

[JEDIpartner]

You think Anakin might kill Mace...? After all, Mace was the one who announced they wouldn't train him.

[GNT]

Originally posted by oafy-wan
Maybe Boba kills Mace out of revenge for Jango. Perhaps Boba helps Anakin kill the Jedi and that's how they knew each other in "Empire". I know Boba is a little boy, but it is a shocking possibility.

I was thinking the same thing,

Jango finds Mace,Mace Fights Jango,Mace kills Jango,Boba finds Mace,Boba fights Mace,Boba Kills Mace,Han kills Boba :D

[Wolfwood319]

Where does the Boba/Han connection start? Do you think we'll see that in EIII? Probably not, but Lucas has been pretty strict on what the EU can tell about Han's past. Sure we see Han/Boba meet in Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy, but even then, they skip big parts of Han's life.

I also heard a rumor that after Jango dies, Boba's on his way back to Slave I, where 2 Jedi are guarding it and Boba kills them. I think this was on TF.N a while back. If this is true, it shows that Boba can indeed kill jedis.

[Co Jo-Da]

Originally posted by GNT
Jango finds Mace,Mace Fights Jango,Mace kills Jango,Boba finds Mace,Boba fights Mace,Boba Kills Mace,Han kills Boba :D

I like that theory as well... Boba avenges his fathers death by killing the Master Jedi Mace Windu, BOUNTY HUNTER STYLE...

[Tycho]

I think that Han Solo is a clone, further antagonizing Boba Fett to hate him, as he is "solo" the one. The one loner who REBELS and isn't raised to follow the master's code - the programming laid down for all of JANGO Fett's progeny (cloned offspring).

Boba Fett is obviously Slave-One, but Han is free and flying Solo.

It makes perfect sense.

And yes, I believe that Boba tries to kill Mace to avenge his father, but ROLLO TAMASSI's version rocks. Fett might fail and Mace Windu vanishes, proving in the prequel trilogy, that a Jedi attune with the Force can do just that - as later Obi-Wan and Yoda must. It is something we don't have room to talk about here, but something the Jedi must learn to do. Rollo, I hope George doesn't mess your story up. I like it a lot!

[Rollo Tomassi]

Thanks Tycho.

I'm a little leery of growing attached to my "definitive" version of Episode III, but it's fun to extrapolate with what we "know."

We know Anakin and Obi Wan have to fight. And Anakin has to lose.

We know Padme has the twins.

We know Yoda and Obi Wan escape.

We know Dooku is alive at the beginning of the movie. (or technically, alive at the end of the second.)

We know Obi Wan was a general under Bail Antilles.

So from there we can surmise a lot of things. Count Dooku will have to be dispatched in order for Anakin to rise. How will this come about? Will Palpatine engineer it? Will Dooku allow it to happen for the good of the Sith? My theory was that the beginning of the film revolves around a giant Republic/Empire invasion of Dooku's Confederations last stronghold on a some exotic new world. Reminiscent of the Hoth invasion in ESB. We would get to see General Kenobi and Bail Antilles in action during the vaunted CLONE WARS. And we would get to see Anakin trouncing some serious Confederation booty. There is a final confrontation between Dooku and Obi Wan and Anakin. before his demise, he makes a cryptic comment about Syo Dias and Palpatine which makes Obi Wan suspicious of the Chancellor/Emperor.
Obi Wan relates his suspicions to the Council (who have been suspicious of Palpatine for awhile) and to Padme. Padme goes to confront Palpatine who gleefully tells her (more for the audiences benefit than Padme's really) how he manipulated everything since the invasion of Naboo up until now to gain his unprecedented power. She rushes off to tell Anakin that his powerful benefactor is indeed evil. When she can't find Anakin, she goes to Obi Wan where Anakin finds them and "The Battle" commences. I originally thought Obi Wan and Anakin would be alone during their confrontation, but GNT brought up the intriguing and more dramatic possibility that Padme is present during the conflict and that she is wounded by one or both of them. This could lead to the reasons she does not live long after the births of the twins. Complications arise from the wound and the pregnancy.

Mace will have to be dispatched. (I can't see him or the other main Jedi characters surviving the third film and never being brought up in the OT.) Mace and Boba have an unresolved conflict at the end of the second film. It must be resolved somehow in the third film or there was no reason for Mace to kill Jango in the second.

Finally, I am still confused about whether Obi Wan knows whether there are, in fact, twins and when exactly they are born and how much time passes between Anakin's disfigurement. I am leaning to Obi Wan NOT knowing about Leia (thus his saying 'That boy is our last hope." in ESB). therefore the twins would be born out of his presence, perhaps on Alderaan (Giving George an excuse to use some of those wonderful production paintings of mcQuarries) where then Obi Wan shows up and takes Luke and and Yoda to Dagobah ("Something familiar about this place...") and then onto Tatooine to drop Luke off with Owen and Beru and walk off into the Tatooine sunset (as all great movies should end with a solitary figure walking into the sunset...)

Does anybody have any continuity questions I may have overlooked? I'd like to think of this as a collaborative effort and This is, of course, a work in progress...

[bigbarada]

I agree with the idea of Obi-Wan possibly not knowing who Leia really is. His statement in ESB points directly to it. Maybe Yoda thought Obi-Wan was too great of a risk (he did train Anakin) and uses him and Luke as bait for Vader and Palpatine (hence keeping the Skywalker name). Meanwhile, Yoda oversees Leia's upbringing from afar, and maybe even uses his power to block her Force abilities from Vader on the Death Star in ANH.

or...

Maybe, Mace does live and is the one watching over Leia on Alderaan. He is obviously killed in ANH, but I wouldn't rule out Lucas filming more scenes and including Mace in Ep4.

The only thing that is still knawing at me is why Yoda is on Dagobah. Ben goes into hiding pretty much in the open on Tatooine, but Yoda takes all these precautions to conceal himself. Which makes me wonder, is Yoda hiding from Palpatine or from Mace? Is he involved in some treachery in Ep2 or 3 that he feels the need to seek refuge from other Jedi? Whatever it might be, Obi-Wan obviously doesn't know about it and his cluelessness to Leia's identity shows that death doesn't provide all the answers. This is just a thought that came to me a few minutes ago, so feel free to shoot it down. The idea of Yoda being a traitor of some sorts is pretty disturbing being he's one of my favorite characters.

[Tycho]

Nobody comments on my Han is a Clone theory: I love it. Well you guys will see....

Back to Rollo Tomassi, as he's really on to something, though my friend Doug and I worked stuff out and I think Rollo's off on some details.


Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi

I'm a little leery of growing attached to my "definitive" version of Episode III, but it's fun to extrapolate with what we "know."


Yes, but by logic I think you are uncovering the major, necessary, and sensical outline to the entire plot. It can't hurt to be on target Rollo, and I think you are.



We know Obi Wan was a general under Bail Antilles.

So from there we can surmise a lot of things. Count Dooku will have to be dispatched in order for Anakin to rise. How will this come about? Will Palpatine engineer it? Will Dooku allow it to happen for the good of the Sith?

My theory was that the beginning of the film revolves around a giant Republic/Empire invasion of Dooku's Confederations last stronghold on a some exotic new world. Reminiscent of the Hoth invasion in ESB. We would get to see General Kenobi and Bail Antilles in action during the vaunted CLONE WARS. And we would get to see Anakin trouncing some serious Confederation booty.



Not some exotic new world: Alderaan. The wars have gotten so bad (they've coincidently brought the conflict to Alderaan). Especially if Palpatine has anything to gain by getting rid of Organa - though I think they might be allies at the opening of the film (as Bail doesn't know any better - or he may not throughout the prequels).

Obi-Wan is there fighting and having to actively work with Alderaan's troops, who incidently look like the Rebel Fleet Troopers from the Tantive IV who defend their Princess. I have reason to believe they were all or many from Alderaan (on a counselor ship, of course. Captain Antilles? Ring a bell? The Captain was related to Bail Antilles somehow, though Wedge, a Corellian, is not (likely).

Meanwhile, the worlds of Episode 3 (in order) might be Alderaan, Coruscant, Geonosis, Dagobah, Tatooine. This seems pretty logical and if anyone wants to discuss it further, let's keep it in this thread as it's intimately wound with the plot.

Meanwhile, Anakin has left the Jedi Order, broken his commitment Obi-Wan spoke of in the E2 trailer, and left because he wanted to live with Padme.

My friend thinks they go and live on Tatooine, his home, where he takes her to be far away from the madness. If she is pregnant and he knows about it (that doesn't mean he knows she lives to see the children born, mind you), Anakin might take her to Tatooine to shelter their new family they're beginning.

With the Clone Wars going badly (the clones are 'good guys' fighting with the Jedi against the Confederacy's droid, private planetary armies (like in the Civil War: Virginia, Mississippi, etc.), and maybe they usurp some clones (to make bad ones - maybe), Obi-Wan asks Naboo (through Padme) for help. She is no longer a queen or a senator any longer, but rather Anakin's housewife (though she has some pull with the people of Naboo). Anakin and Padme are likely living with Owen and Beru. Anakin argues they should not get involved, but like her future daughter, Padme is insistant they help friends. Owen says "no." But for the love of his wife, Anakin leaves with pregnant Padme (maybe not showing or with him knowing she is) to go "on a damned idealistic crusade" to bring Naboo's forces to bear on forces attacking Alderaan. For this favor - saving his entire planet - Bail Organa will adopt Padme's orphaned daughter. (as Organa is too old for a relationship with Padme, as I previously thought might be possible. No way with Jimmy Smits and Natalie Portman's age difference). So like Han Solo, confused by Leia's selfless acts of courage to remain and evacuate Echo Base, Anakin is taken by emotion to support Padme - typical theme reuse by Lucas.

Anakin, having lost the first Skywalker lightsaber in E2 (blue one we've seen in production shots) and not allowed to carry one, or having returned the green one (from a fallen Jedi in the arena, or Qui-Gon's original one), and the 2nd blue one (actually Obi-Wan's) has to use his own technical prowess to make a lightsaber in a hurry - we'll see it this time (the construction) from parts of R2D2 and C-3PO, will he produce the famous (Luke) Skywalker lightsaber (the 3rd blue one Anakin uses). That's why it's so lacking in 'professional trade parts' like red buttons and looks more 'built on the run w.o. temple resources).

Now Rollo Tamassi's theory continues on - and quite correctly -



There is a final confrontation between Dooku and Obi Wan and Anakin. before his demise, he makes a cryptic comment about Syo Dias and Palpatine which makes Obi Wan suspicious of the Chancellor/Emperor.
Obi Wan relates his suspicions to the Council (who have been suspicious of Palpatine for awhile) and to Padme. Padme goes to confront Palpatine who gleefully tells her (more for the audiences benefit than Padme's really) how he manipulated everything since the invasion of Naboo up until now to gain his unprecedented power.



I think this will parallel Return of the Jedi, "I am a Jedi, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, before me!"

Dooku may taunt him, "No it is inevitable. You underestimate the power of the Dark Side. Now take your Jedi weapon and strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete!"

Obi-Wan yells "Noooooo!" but it is not Anakin's way. He slays Dooku in cold blood. As I think the Count will already be defeated at this point, possibly wounded, so it will not be necessary in combat, but clearly a vengeful act on Anakin's part. Obi-Wan and Anakin do NOT fight each other over this in particular I think, but it makes their reunion difficult and the rift between them over the last 4 years is definitely obvious. Anakin is a maniac, unmindful of his training for sure.



She rushes off to tell Anakin that his powerful benefactor is indeed evil. When she can't find Anakin, she goes to Obi Wan where Anakin finds them and "The Battle" commences. I originally thought Obi Wan and Anakin would be alone during their confrontation, but GNT brought up the intriguing and more dramatic possibility that Padme is present during the conflict and that she is wounded by one or both of them. This could lead to the reasons she does not live long after the births of the twins. Complications arise from the wound and the pregnancy.



I think GNT is partially right. I don't think she is wounded in the conflict - maybe a handmaiden is - one sent to find the Jedi. And Anakin might be distracted by his argument with Obi-Wan and believe it is his wife. If he is better than Obi-Wan, he may even sacrafice himself in the fight (or try to) because he 'saw' Padme die - and forever leave Obi-Wan feeling guilty of the 'kill strike.' But his 'friend' Palpatine, won't let Anakin die...and his genetic make-up, midicholorians whatever, help him make it impossible for Anakin not to fight (the lava or whatever) to survive.

In pre-production art (which George is found of using - shown on tour in Magic of the Myth) Palpatine has a lair beneathe Coruscant in the planet's molten core - where his other throne lies. CORUSCANT is the location of the lava pit duel scene as Obi-Wan discovers Palpatine's true nature!



Mace will have to be dispatched. (I can't see him or the other main Jedi characters surviving the third film and never being brought up in the OT.) Mace and Boba have an unresolved conflict at the end of the second film. It must be resolved somehow in the third film or there was no reason for Mace to kill Jango in the second.

Right. Sorry Barada, but your alternate theories about Mace and Yoda do not add up. Rollo is actually the screenplay writer for Episode 3 now, LOL.



Finally, I am still confused about whether Obi Wan knows whether there are, in fact, twins and when exactly they are born and how much time passes between Anakin's disfigurement. I am leaning to Obi Wan NOT knowing about Leia (thus his saying 'That boy is our last hope." in ESB).

therefore the twins would be born out of his presence, perhaps on Alderaan (Giving George an excuse to use some of those wonderful production paintings of mcQuarries) where then Obi Wan shows up and takes Luke and and Yoda to Dagobah ("Something familiar about this place...") and then onto Tatooine to drop Luke off with Owen and Beru and walk off into the Tatooine sunset (as all great movies should end with a solitary figure walking into the sunset...)

Does anybody have any continuity questions I may have overlooked? I'd like to think of this as a collaborative effort and This is, of course, a work in progress...

I think you got it. Yoda is likely protecting Padme. I honestly think JarJar is somehow involved as there is a point for 'the fool' character in Classic Mythology. The act will be designed to make us rethink how we treated JarJar -as his true worth will show and his character will have evolved. He was so obnoxious in Episode One because we were SUPPOSED to loathe him. Lucas is moral preaching about how we treat others different from us, weaker than us, and mythology always held lessons in morality. So JarJar serves a very serious point in his actual final deeds in the prequel trilogy - likely having something to do with sacraficing his life to save the twins and/or Padme. We will all cheer when JarJar dies or something, but then feel bad about it, because without his self-less act, A New Hope could never exist! JarJar fits in - I'm 100% sure of that. Sorry but you'll have to add him to our theory.

Meanwhile Rollo, you are doing awesome. Keep it going!

[Tycho]

One more thing: Obi-Wan Kenobi will not fight DARTH VADER in the entire prequel trilogy. I am 70% sure of it.

He will be afraid to face Obi-Wan I think - though the theory that he lets him go, as a final favor to his old friend and master - and lies to Palpatine that Obi-Wan is dead, might be correct. So they could confront each other.

Actually, it echoes of Palpatine saying "It is the only way you can save your friends." Perhaps Anakin's allegiance to Palpatine also protects Obi-Wan, who the Sith know is still alive.

Obi-Wan lives so long as he doesn't interfere. That and Obi-Wan is a Sith-Killer of some accomplishment, and it would serve no purpose to face him, especially considering all the emotions involved. Meanwhile, Obi-Wan knows that 'Darth Vader's loyalty to him' will only go so far, but the Dark Lord is 10 times less likely to strike down his own son - as Anakin chose FAMILY over everything. So it is best for Obi-Wan to be exiled and watch over Luke (though Vader doesn't know that's why he agreed to leave.)

Remember "You should not have COME BACK" from ANH?

The lie had convinced Tarkin that Obi-Wan was likely dead, but he might have known that Kenobi survived the Jedi death as well: "Surely his fire has gone out of the universe by now." Implying that Tarkin figures the nearly 60 year old Kenobi could not have survived on the run that long, and some Death Squad or Obi-Wan's characteristic knack for finding trouble got him killed somewhere along the lines.

OK. Now I am not 70% sure VADER doesn't face Obi-Wan. Though I do think they agree to part ways without much of a fight -if any at all.

The big lightsaber fights will be ANAKIN vs. Obi-Wan, and Anakin vs. Dooku for his final revenge. Palpatine must somehow get involved - and maybe due to his age, he himself narrowly escapes Obi-Wan. I got a theory: maybe Obi-Wan could strike Palpatine down, but Palpatine must use Dark Side Lightning (on Obi-Wan, revealing his true nature) but VADER interferes and threatens to turn on Palpatine (who he owes for saving his life nonetheless) but will swear allegiance to Palpatine if he spares Obi-Wan (so long as he agrees to 'get the hell out of town).

There being no more Jedi, and his former apprentice buying Obi-Wan's life with his own, Obi-Wan must leave and acknowledge DARTH VADER's only act as a Jedi - thus also making him not the complete evil character (but rather the fallen hero).

And Vader swears his allegiance to Palpatine over Obi-Wan's life, thus one more reason, he must obey his master!

[Jedi Clint]

After the close of AOTC.

Anakin sets off on a path to become the Republic's greatest warrior as the Clone Wars break out across the galaxy. He spends less time with Padme on Naboo, and more serving Palpatine and the Republic. Kenobi serves on Alderaan.


Star Wars Episode 3:

Act 1

Anakin vs. Dooku
Final battle of the Clone Wars. Although they are taking place across the galaxy, this battle is the most important victory for the Republic and Anakin leads them to victory. With Dooku exterminated the Confederacy lacks a military leader.

Kenobi is on Alderaan where Padme comes to inform him of Anakin's absence and her worry in regards to his character as of late. She also tells him that she is pregnant.

Act 2

Anakin vs. Kenobi

The Confederacy decides to negotiate with the Republic. During the negotiations the Confederate systems demand that they will only follow one man - Palpatine. Kenobi's failed attempt at drawing his friend back to the good side results in Anakin left almost lifeless and mutilated.


Act 3

Vader vs. Kenobi

A few months time has passed since the duel, and Palpatine request that his servant and apprentice Lord Vader take charge of exterminating the Rebellious Jedi Knights who turned on him once he declared himself Emperor. He learns the location of Obi Wan Kenobi and sets out to confront him. Padme is close to giving birth to her twins. Yoda takes her to safety and Kenobi is confronted by Vader. After his narrow escape, he meets with Yoda who puts Kenobi in charge of taking care of the infant Luke. He is to watch over him from afar at the Lars Homestead. Padme is taken to Alderaan to live in the court of Bail Organa. Her daughter Leia is adopted by the Organa's and becomes a princess on that world.

[bigbarada]

Tycho, I'm confused as to where you get the notion that Anakin will build his lightsaber using parts from Threepio and Artoo.

Other than that, it seems you and Rollo have the basic storyline behind Ep3 nailed. However, I wouldn't underestimate George's knack for throwing in a curve ball from way out of left field.

My theory on Yoda was just an idea that popped into me head while typing my post. Just the ramblings of a lunatic, pay it no mind.;)

[bigbarada]

Oh yeah, I highly doubt your Han is a clone theory. Sure it might fight into the story from a certain point of view; but it's just waaaaay too many coincidences. No offense, but I really hope you're wrong about that one.

[chewie]

I wanna know what becomes of Naboo and the Gungans. Namely because Naboo and the Gungan people are never brought up in the OT.

Is Naboo the first target practice for the Death Star? :) (unlikely, as it took up until the time of ANH for it to become operational).
Is it a planet that is ravaged/destroyed by the Clone Wars? Or does Palpatine somehow show off his true power of the dark side by using the force to destroy the planet?

Anyway. Something is gonna happen to that planet. Any other theories?

[Tycho]

Hmm, to answer Chewie, BigBarada, and JediClint in reverse order...

Chewie: I really don't have a guess except that maybe Naboo is still around and it's business as usual under the Empire, just not significant enough of planet in the Classic Trilogy. It is Palpatine's homeworld, so he might have some feelings about that....

Doubtful though.


BigBarada: I understand about the coincidences, but I don't think of Han being a clone as a coincidence, yet part of the final story synopsis: an old wizard, a young apprentice, a princess, and two droids take on an evil Empire of Dark Sourcerors and a fanatical clone army of limitless numbers, but they find unlikely allies in a rebelling clone soldier and his monstrous Wookiee friend, who protects our heroes until they can develop into the powerful warriors that finally restore justice to the galaxy. (Han's role revisited).

BigBarada (Too): my theory of why Anakin builds his lightsaber (the famous one) out of junk should hold true. That it's made from parts of Artoo and Threepio is just wishful thinking - it's another coincidence I think might be cute (though there will be almost enough of them at that point).


JediClint: Your theory seems pretty sound and sort of echoes Rollo Tamossi's and mine, however, I think the Confederacy hates Palpatine. They won't want to deal with him. He is Abraham Lincoln or Ulysses S. Grant to the Confederacy of our history - and in this case, right after Sherman (Anakin) assassinates Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis (Dooku's counterpart - which of course didn't happen in our history. I'm just using it as an alalogy). Ironically, though - the Licoln "preserve the union" platform is Palpatine's role in this trilogy. "If Abraham had been evil...."

However, you don't really take Anakin to the Dark Side in your version, though I think you just meant to outline the story. What motivates him, now? (Anakin)

Finally, I think that the Jedi will be blamed for the injustices of the original Clone Army, (if there is a second one) and Palpatine will use mass public support for the extermination of the Jedi (as in everything from lynch mobs to bounty hunters). It will be more of a hysteria in appearence (the Purge) than it will be guided by any edict (on the surface). Palpatine will be in complete control of course. It just won't look that way to the Jedi or the general public. I think Obi-Wan will be one of the few Jedi who know, before it is too late.

By the way? Is Tarkin fitting into all this? He is governor of Eriadu, and a military man for the Eriadu system out near the Mid-Rim.

How about Mon Mothma?

What do you think?

[bigbarada]

I can kind of see where you are coming from with the clone Han thing, but I really am not too comfortable with it. Besides I thought it was stated that Han and Chewie would not be in the prequels.

[Jedi Clint]

Tycho,

The reason my theory has the Jedi rebel against Palpatine is because I think G.L. will use the fate of the Samurai from fuedal Japan as a template for the Jedi of his Star Wars saga. When Japan switched from a fuedal system to the one it has today, the Emperor did away with the Samurai class, and replaced them with a central military. As a result many Samurai formed numerous small rebellions against the Emperor, while a few others took up positions in the new order before the change had completely taken place. For the Jedi, I think that it will probably be knowledge of Palpatine's true nature that causes them to rebel against him. I even think it is possible that what little remaining Jedi there were remaining after the Clone Wars are responsible for starting the Rebellion that we see in the OT. I completely agree that Palpatine could pin the entire Clone Wars debacle on the Jedi. "It was their idea to invade Geonosis and use the clones in the first place!" For some reason (that I am unsure of as of yet) your reply has started me thinking about what the Jedi and Obi Wan know about Palpatine. The Council/head of the order may not have the time, resources, or desire to conduct a massive investigation into what transpired on Kamino in AOTC. They may be content to let Kenobi look into it further, or may believe that they have found the source in Count Dooku. Kenobi might not be as certain of this. He may keep digging around until he finds out more about who ordered the clone army created. Perhaps when he does it is too late. He has enough time to tell Master Yoda, and then all hell breaks loose.

I see where your coming from with the tie in to our own civil war. The reason I have the reunification happen with the Confederacy comming together only under Palpatine in the negotiations, is because Palps is the master manipulator. I think he knows exactly what to offer and say to both sides to make them fall madly in love with him, or fear him as they have feared no one before. You don't just get to declare yourself Emperor by stepping up to the podium and using your vocal chords. You have to have a massive power structure in place as well as popularity, loyalty, strength, etc. They may love/hate him, but they know better than to cross him. Their military leader is M.I.A., and Palpatine is offering them a deal that makes them salivate. Their choice is really a non choice. Do they continue to fight for the ideals that Palpatine offers to incorporate into his new order and lose? I don't think so.

As for Anakin's transition to the Dark Side, you are correct. I did not really include that information because it was a very brief summary. I think what pushes him initially is the death of his Mother at the hands of the Raiders - a tragic life lesson at the very least. After that I think he vents his frustration into taking care of business, channeling his anger into destroying the enemy. I think he grounds himself with Padme. I also think there will be a rift formed between the two love birds between the films. The overall factor driving the split being Anakin's duty as a soldier becoming what it really should have been as a Jedi. His dedication to winning Palpatine's admiration becomes more important than keeping the affection of Padme. Their could be other differences of opinion and misunderstandings in the mix as well though. He resents Obi Wan for the loss of his mother due to what he perceives as being trained at a snails pace. I think he also lusts for power and presitige. Pride is his worst enemy. When Dooku shocks the hell out him in AOTC I think that is the first time he sees what beings with his ability are really capable of. From that time on he is really on a quest to be "the most powerful Jedi ever". I think it is his duel with Kenobi that brings out the devil in him so to speak. After all he does for the Republic, his former master (the one who cost him his mother) has the nerve to come tell him how he is on the wrong path, and that he should rethink his life. As far as Anakin is concerned he has obviously been on the right path since they parted ways. I would really like to know the exact dynamics of the confrontation between the two that ends in Anakin's "demise". After that duel though, Palpatine saves Anakin's life. He tells him that he can show him how his hate for Kenobi can make him powerful. He can return to his side as his apprentice, and learn the ways of the Sith. He is Darth Vader.

I have no clue whether we will see Tarkin in these films, but it would be neat. I do expect to see Mon Mothma in opposition to the preceedings that bring about the birth of the the Empire.

[Tycho]

Isn't this a great discussion? They'll nominate us as a team to write E3's novelization! LOL


JEDI CLINT: the Samurai theory is very cool and I think you are on to something. Nice addition to the discussion. I do think there will be a combination of both our theories. You focused more on the Jedi, and myself and Tomassi on the political entities. The Jedi who break away, the 20 that leave, or some of them, could be turning into Dark Jedi that set themselves up like feudal warlords. That sort of thing mirrors Japan that you described, as well as a lot of Star Wars EU that has been written because professional writers thought it was logical, as well.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint


I see where your coming from with the tie in to our own civil war. The reason I have the reunification happen with the Confederacy comming together only under Palpatine in the negotiations, is because Palps is the master manipulator. I think he knows exactly what to offer and say to both sides to make them fall madly in love with him, or fear him as they have feared no one before. You don't just get to declare yourself Emperor by stepping up to the podium and using your vocal chords. You have to have a massive power structure in place as well as popularity, loyalty, strength, etc. They may love/hate him, but they know better than to cross him. Their military leader is M.I.A., and Palpatine is offering them a deal that makes them salivate. Their choice is really a non choice. Do they continue to fight for the ideals that Palpatine offers to incorporate into his new order and lose? I don't think so.

I think I can answer that: Military Governor Wilhuf Tarkin of Eriadu is Dooku's military commander of the Confederate Forces. Like General Lee to Jefferson Davis.

However, Tarkin is already and secretly in leauge with Palpatine and gets a sweet deal out of a Confederate surrender to the Republic, which Palpatine has already had tighter and tighter control over for the past 10 years, remember. So not both sides need to conceed to Palpatine, just loud opposition elements do in the Republic (Mon Mothma of Chandrilla, Bail Organa of Alderaan, - Garm Bel Ibis of Corellia? -wishful thinking). But yes, I think Tarkin fits in there, and he might even be a surprise we don't know about for Episode 2, but I bet he's definitely in Episode 3. Maybe he is still climbing to power in the Confederacy in E2.



I think he grounds himself with Padme. I also think there will be a rift formed between the two love birds between the films

His dedication to winning Palpatine's admiration becomes more important than keeping the affection of Padme.

No I think it is totally the opposite with Anakin and Padme. He is not going to develop a rift or distance from her at all, but just the opposite. He will love her so much, he would kill anyone to avenge her. That is why a Jedi cannot know Love.

At our base instincts we want to mate, protect our mates, and keep mating, while protecting our families. When we must, we resort to violence - and in a lawless society, what was it - Hobbe's State of Nature, or John Locke's Treatise of Governments - we would kill whoever stood in our way of being with the mate we desire. [way over-simplified, if you want the cheerleader, kill the quarterback, so only the Star Wars Fan is left for her to get together with. That occurs to everyone, as much as it occurs to the Quarterback to push buttons on everyone else's insecurities so they don't challenge his dominance as Big Man on Campus]. It's the Dark Side in all of us. My example employed more use of jealousy than I think we'll see in Anakin, versus just being able to defend her against conspiracies around them, but there is no way anything could be more passionate than him acting out of hate due to the loss of the possibility for love.

Now if you argue with the dominance of my argument, I will murder you unless my girlfriend gets here in time to distract me ;)

I'm kidding, so please do comment on my reasoning. This gun isn't loaded.

And in this climate, I don't think Anakin gives a darn about Palpatine. He doesn't want to be involved. I still think that it is his obvious dedication to her that gets him back into this mess, as his wife won't refuse a request to help Bail Organa and Obi-Wan.

So everything he does out of love and duty ends up betraying him. Even in the end, it sort of does in his view during ANH I suppose. His last 'act of love' will be letting Obi-Wan escape, and it turns out his old master only comes back having turned his son against him. By Jedi, Anakin's opinion on this and of Obi-Wan in general, changes considerably. I think you see that in the Ewok Village when Anakin's spirit stands warmly beside his former mentor.

Jedi Clint: your turn.

Rollo Tomassi, jump in any time.

Barada? Your 2 cents worth?

Anyone else?

This is the greatest discussion I've had in forums!

[Jedi Clint]

I never meant to imply that Anakin does not love Padme. By "rift", I meant more along the lines of a Romeo and Juliet paradigm. The Forbidden Love trailer gives a taste of this with the following lines (forgive me if I don't quote exactly):

Anakin, "We could keep it a secret."
Padme, "It would destroy us." "I couldn't live that way could you Ani?"

It seems doomed from the beginning. They will never stop loving one another, but other factors in their life will rip them apart the harder they struggle to make it work. The Confederacy meant to kill Padme, and Anakin will probably be on a mission to make sure they no longer pose a threat to her. At the same time he does this, he is serving Palpatine and the Republic. The dark path he starts down to ensure Padme's safety begins to fulfill another deep seated need for Anakin......recognition of his accomplishments. In TPM Anakin has to show off: his protocol droid, his pod racer, and his abilities. When he scores victory after victory for the Republic, he becomes drunk on the approval of those he thinks highly of....namely Palpatine. As the Supreme Chancellor, his gratitude, praise, and recognition mean more than your average Joe (at least to Anakin). Now he feels he is ridding the galaxy of those who threaten his love, and he is becoming a grade A hero in the eyes of the Chancellor and the Republic he serves. At the same time he is jetting down the path to the dark side. Glory causes him to lose sight of his compassion. His fear of losing Padme (the love of his life) makes him forget to nurture that love. He spends less time with Padme, and more/all his time trying to protect her until finally he never makes it back to her. I don't think that Padme will stop loving Anakin either. I think she may become very concerned about what she sees when she looks into his eyes upon each subsequent return to her though.


I think it is very possible that he lets Kenobi escape.

[Rollo Tomassi]

When I think of the relationship between Anakin and Padme, I keep coming back to all those references Lucas was makng about Othello. Palpatine is clearly the Iago character, whispering in Anakin/Othello's ear. Palpatine has "been watching Anakin's career with great interest" pulling him deeper and deeper into Sidious' web of deceit and lies. Soon, Anakin is listening to his only "true friend" the "benevolent" Chancellor Palpatine. After Padme confronts Palpatine and rushes off to tell Anakin and finds Obi Wan instead, Palpatine "suggests" to Anakin that something is going on between his wife and his former master. He stumbles in on them and "confirms"it, leading to "THE BATTLE"

I really like Alderaan being the stage for the giant Confederation battle. It would explain their disarmament in Episode IV "Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons..."

I think it's a given that Palpatine turns the general populace against the Jedi. I've always had the feeling that common citizens helped turn in jedi during the purge for rewards.

The Han Solo clone issue seems out of place and gimmicky for the third movie what with all the other issues that need to be dealt with. I believe it's a distinct possibility that Solo is indeed another clone of Jango (making young Daniel Logan a young Han Solo as well!!), and thus deserving of a jealous Boba Fett's wrath, but I think it will be resolved more in the EU novels between III and IV than in the actual movie.

I agree that Jar Jar, Tarkin, and Mon Mothma all have a part to play, but until I get the main points worked out in my head, I don't know where to insert them. Even smaller elements are rolling around in my head as well. For instance, How do Yoda and Padme and/or Obi Wan escape? Does one of them take a beat up old Correlian YT freighter off of Coruscant? Stuff like that I can see G. Lu sticking in the movie.

Darth Vader either A. knows Padme is pregnant but believes she has perished or B. Doesn't know about the pregnancy and thinks she has gone into hiding. If she is present during "the BATTLE" and is wounded than Anakin/Vader might believe she is dead. But if he knows about the children and thinks she MIGHT have survived, then wouldn't he put ALL his efforts into finding out for sure? I don't think he knows about the pregnancy.

This is a great discussion you guys!! My biggest fear is that G. Lu has somebody reading these forums and when they discover we've already disected his top secret treatment for Episode III he'll rewrite an inferior draft in order for us to be "suprised' by the third movie...:eek:

[Tycho]

Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
My biggest fear is that G. Lu has somebody reading these forums and when they discover we've already disected his top secret treatment for Episode III he'll rewrite an inferior draft in order for us to be "suprised' by the third movie...:eek:

LOL, I know! I thought about that, too! I'm liking our version of the E3 story a lot, now! But I think we are really on to it!

Yes! Alderaan's disarmament was a great point. I know they are disarmed, but why? Maybe Alderaan's navy attacks Geonosis, so our initial battle location is wrong. Same players, different endzone...? We still end up with negotiations for Alderaan's disarmament - maybe as a condition of the peace accords with the Confederacy. Whatever the case, I hope we get some scenes ON Alderaan so we can actually see the planet.

JEDI CLINT: you could be right. What you said makes sense, while it still keeps the passion of love between Anakin and Padme, though they each express it in different ways (Anakin obsessed with destroying the Confederacy to show his love for Padme - thus protecting her, while he wants to do greater and greater things!)

[Rollo Tomassi]

I don't think G. Lu will recycle Geonosis for the big opening battle sequence. I like that it might be Alderaan (giving us a glimpse at that beautiful world before it's destruction in Episode IV) but if it's not Alderaan, I think it will be a brand new exotic world. Barren and bleak would set the tone so what would convey that kind of "battle hardened, world weary" motif? Snowy frozen tundra? Bombed out cityscape? Burnt and ashen forest? A combination of all three? George is a fan of single climate worlds, but he's gone thru pretty much all of them. Waterworld Kamino, Snowy Hoth, Swampy Dagobah, Tropical Jungle Yavin, Desert Tatooine, Forest Endor, Cityscape Coruscant, The open Plains of Naboo, Rocky Geonosis, Pink Fluffy Clouded Bespin, Underwater Otah Gunga... I see the misty Scottish highlands making a beautiful but sad epic battleground. Or a nice tropical island setting...(just kidding) but other than that, I think locales have been exhausted.

Does anyone think "the battle" won't take place on Coruscant? I can't see it taking place anywhere else. I've pictured at least part of it outside in a drizzle, so that both men are soaked and depressed, maybe even tears coming to their eyes, mixing with the rain, because they love and hate each other so much. Their sabers fizzling as the rain hits them. I picture powerful words during this moment. Accusations of betrayal from both men. A crescendo of music to match the mood. Powerful stuff. I know they've got a "lightsaber in the rain" battle in II, but I've had these images in my mind longer than I've known the plot to Episode II.

And finally, I've been thinking of the birth of the twins. Is it possible to keep Leia's birth from the audience so that it's a suprise in Episode VI? If we are following Obi Wan and his "confrontation" (not FIGHT) with Darth Vader, then by the time he gets to Alderaan, the twins have already been born. Yoda, Padme,and Obi Wan discuss the best place to hide young Luke (settling on Tatooine) and as they say their farewells to Padme and board their battered, inconspicuous YT-1300, the camera pans over to a handmaiden holding a second infant ( a la the pan to Palpatine at the end of Phantom Menace) Now, naturally, we would KNOW it was the infant Leia, but in terms of the cinematic story, it would not be revealed that the infant was one of twins. Thus "preserving" the secret until ROJ...

[Jedi Clint]

My vote is for a brand new world to stage the battle on. I love that we get to see 2 new worlds in AOTC. Perhaps it is in the terms of the reunification agreement that Alderaan gets disarmed. I think they can work the events of E3 to allow Leia's true lineage to remain a surprise. I like the idea of having the duel between Obi and Ani to happen in bowels of Coruscant. Obi Wan seeks Anakin out there and follows Anakin and Palpatine far into the crust of the planet where glowing hot magma bubbles.

I have been enjoying this discussion as well. Sorry this reply was a bit brief.

[Rollo Tomassi]

My thoughts on what has been brought up so far...

originally posted by Tycho
Meanwhile, Anakin has left the Jedi Order, broken his commitment Obi-Wan spoke of in the E2 trailer, and left because he wanted to live with Padme.

My friend thinks they go and live on Tatooine, his home, where he takes her to be far away from the madness. If she is pregnant and he knows about it (that doesn't mean he knows she lives to see the children born, mind you), Anakin might take her to Tatooine to shelter their new family they're beginning.
Meanwhile, Anakin has left the Jedi Order, broken his commitment Obi-Wan spoke of in the E2 trailer, and left because he wanted to live with Padme.

I can't see Anakin sitting the Clone Wars out and living with Owen and Beru on Tatooine. I think both he and Obi Wan, while at some odds with one another, are both very active in the Clone Wars and for the most part are still a team. I think due to the events in Episode II, Anakin might be afforded the status of Jedi Knight and even though she spoke to the contrary in the trailer, Padme and Anakin do indeed "keep it a secret."

originally posted by Tycho
Anakin and Padme are likely living with Owen and Beru. Anakin argues they should not get involved, but like her future daughter, Padme is insistant they help friends. Owen says "no." But for the love of his wife, Anakin leaves with pregnant Padme (maybe not showing or with him knowing she is) to go "on a damned idealistic crusade" to bring Naboo's forces to bear on forces attacking Alderaan.

I've always seen Naboo as relatively peaceful and not having anything more than an "honor guard" as a military force. Certainly nothing strong enough to intervene in a major conflict such as the one we've been describing.

originally posted by Tycho
I honestly think JarJar is somehow involved as there is a point for 'the fool' character in Classic Mythology. The act will be designed to make us rethink how we treated JarJar -as his true worth will show and his character will have evolved.

As the noose tightens around the now hunted Jedi, Padme will turn to the only non Jedi contact she has on the planet, Senator jar jar. He will arrange the transport that carries them off planet. While sacrificing his life is a distinct possibility, somehow I don't think George will get that gritty with the trilogy. Rather, there will be a wistful goodbye between Padme and her old friend who has matured from bumbling comic relief to true hero.

originally posted by chewie
I wanna know what becomes of Naboo and the Gungans. Namely because Naboo and the Gungan people are never brought up in the OT.

Neither are neimoudians, kaminoans, geonosians, dugs, nor any of the other podracers races, but that doesn't mean they blew up all of their planets either. I think the EU reason for no mention of Naboo will be Palpatine doctored the books dealing with the planet that he rose to power on. I think this will make an intriguing post- New Jedi Order book series as Luke and Leia finally discover their heritage (and an ancient Jar Jar Binks) on a long forgotten Naboo...

I completely agree with the Civil War analogy except you have to remember. In this version Lincoln and Jefferson are on the same side and manipulating EVERYBODY...

[Tycho]

Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi


I completely agree with the Civil War analogy except you have to remember. In this version Lincoln and Jefferson are on the same side and manipulating EVERYBODY...

A cool irony, isn't it? LOL at Palpatine - the evil genius. You gotta love him!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK- about Anakin sitting out the Clone Wars: I can't argue with you, it will be one way or the other. I think he does try to sit them out and live a normal life, and then gets swept up in it, because of his wife. But the part I'm most uncomfortable with is why does he make a cheap lightsaber out of junk? (do you or do you not view the LUKE Skywalker lightsaber (#1) as being substandard)

[this does not mean you don't think it's not cool looking - it's actually way cooler looking than these 'plastic toys' we've seen the Temple's Finest using. But those sabers do have standardized parts and buttons and things - are the Classic Trilogy Lightsabers 'junk' built on the run - and typical of our improvising heroes? Rate them in their fictional universe standards...]



Now to Naboo getting involved because Bail Organa needs help. True the Naboo have always had a small volunteer military, but they have dedicated forces like the Rebel Alliance would at Yavin. And the situation may be THAT desperate. Additionally, Palpatine would look good again, by sacraficing his home planet's forces to save Alderaan. (and it will be ironic that later Palpatine destroys it.) However, if he wants to shut Bail Organa up (assuming he's opposing Palpatine) the Chancelor simply saves Alderaan and Organa owes him. Disarmament is one part of the price. His silence as the Empire is created, is another, drastically more expensive piece. Later, Bail Organa realizes he made a terrible mistake (this could be years after Episode 3 and happens Off Screen). The Rebel Alliance is born!

I think Jedi Clint and I are right about the location of the duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Most planets have molten cores, lava etc., the deep, violent center of power in the galaxy, Coruscant, will spell Anakin's doom!


Keeping Leia's birth a secret (just to the characters and not to us, the movie audience) is a good plot device. Maybe even keeping it a secret to us (and just seeing Bail Organa with a young daughter for 'no particular reason') -but never revealing the girl is Padme's, might save one more 'surprise' for Episode 6 one day, when our grandkids view it all in order or something.
The theory that Obi-Wan doesn't know until his ghost learns the truth in Empire Strikes Back (as Luke leaves Dagobah), might hold a lot of water. In time we'll see. I hope this thread is still around in 2005. Imagine how many posts! LOL

[Rollo Tomassi]

Maybe Anakin just shows up with his hobbled together lightsaber. Obi Wan says "What's that? You're not supposed to have a lightsaber. you aren't a Jedi!" and Anakin just rolls his eyes and gives him a whattreugonnado? look. I DO think the lightsaber looks like its rigged from spare parts, but so does Obi Wans. Maybe during the course of the war, they were losing them so fast, they couldn't be bothered to make spiffy looking ones and were cranking out functional but ugly ones.


The problem I'm wrestling with now: Obi Wan comes back with Dooku's cryptic words about Palpatine. He tells the council (who have been suspicious of Palpatine for awhile) and soon after Jedi become Wanted Outlaws. Does the council publicly oppose Palpatine? Is his reaction preemptive, that is, does he turn public opinion against them BEFORE they can publicly oppose him? HOW does he turn the entire galaxy against them? And in such a short time? Does he foster paranoia and distrust for these "super beings" that lord their power over the rest of the galaxy? Does Palpatine play his "They're different!" card? I find it tenuous that Palpatine could rally support against the "Guardians of Peace and Justice for a thousand generations" so quickly. SOMETHING happens and I can't put my finger on it. Are they scapegoats? How does that come about?

Think cinematically people. You've only got two hours and change to convince the audience that Palpatine has convinced the entire galaxy that Jedi are evil and must be purged. Less than that if you have to devote screen time to other things. I am at a loss as to how this comes about without making it sound completely contrived...I await your opinions.

[Rollo Tomassi]

"Count Dooku!!

Count Dooku, FORMER JEDI, leader of the Confederation, beginner of the Clone Wars. Personal Jedi squabbles escalated to include all of us decent NON-JEDI citizens. Can we really afford to have these all powerful wizards running around starting intergalactic wars? I'm afraid the Jedi have outworn their usefulness. For the good of the Republic, we must purge them from our worlds. If they resist, it only proves their true intentions to destroy as all!!"

--Taken from Chancellor Palpatine's Jedi Purge speech

Count Dooku is the key! Well, that's my opinion. It needs work, but it is an intriguing possibility.

[Tycho]

I agree with Rollo Tomassi: Count Dooku is a lot of the evidence he needs. Palpatine is also setting Dooku up for the fall, even.

But furthermore, there is no Council in Episode 3 (or an entirely new one).

Only Mace, Yoda, Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon survive Episode 3. I thought TFN baciscally had that confirmed. True they have the authority to act as a Council, or appoint new members. They probably will - but many new members could be a lot less experienced than say Sae-Sae Tiin who I think we see bite the dustin Episode 2 (Two).

Furthermore, I think since Yoda usurps Palpatine's clones on Kamino (bringing them into the Battle of Genoisis in the first place) Palpatine can blame the Jedi Council for setting the clones loose in the first place. Palpatine may have even suggested to Yoda to use them, proving he's still trusted and can manipulate the Jedi Council even.

I think at first ONLY Obi-Wan will discover the truth about Palpatine and live to tell about it. The Sith might even set him up personally to take the fall as a criminal in the galaxy since the Sith can't seem to slay him (and never actually do - technically). Plus Anakin (Vader) likely let's him escape - but do you think Palpatine never forsees this possibility - or is even uninvolved in the 'Sith plot to let Obi-Wan LIVE?' It likely is a matter of Anakin giving himself to the Dark Side. "It is the only way he can save his friends." But if Palpatine would let Obi-Wan walk, don't think he would 'innocently' have another mechanism set in place to eliminate Obi-Wan (so it's not "the Sith's fault" if the public lynched him). Maybe tapes of him on Kamino, 'overseeing the whole Clone Army operation, so the Jedi can command battalions when they use this conflageration to rise to power' - and of course only Palpatine can SAVE the galaxy...

[Jedi Clint]

I don't think that Anakin will ever live a day when he isn't supposed to have a lightsaber. It is my guesstimation that Anakin and Padme will have time to be love birds in secret on Coruscant when the Confederacy rebuilds it's army (with clones this time). There will be a brief time of uneasy "peace" (when they supposedly try to work things out) before they hit the most powerful worlds of the Republic, and hit them hard. I don't think the issue of why the style of lightsaber changes over time will ever be addressed in the films. If I had to guess at this, I would say that Kenobi made the saber he gave to Luke out of spare parts (it is the only one I remember from the OT that looked awkward in any way) and gave it to him saying "This is your father's lightsaber.........". He barely told him anything that was true even from a "certain point of view" during that conversation.

I think as fans we put more importance on the existence of Jedi than the make-believe characters of the SW saga do. They live in a galaxy full of crazy aliens and fantastic technology. Maybe they have heard that the Republic uses Jedi to keep the peace and that they are wizards, but the average Joe has probably never been in contact with one. The Jedi deal with the rulers of worlds rather than their citizens. The inhabitants of the planet Coruscant may be well aquainted with the Jedi, but once again the majority probably have no dealings with them. The senate and those involved with it would be closest to the Jedi in business and personal relationships. They are also aware of the events that push the Jedi out of their role as gaurdians of peace and justice. Some may disagree with what happens to them, others agree, and yet others are indifferent. Those are the people that will care whether the Jedi exist or do not. If grilled about the clone wars and how they started, Palpatine can always claim that the Jedi advised him to use the clone army on Geonosis against former Jedi Dooku. The senate will ratify the military creation act, and that could happen before the invasion, before the close of AOTC, or shortly there after. I believe when the Jedi rebel against the Emperor, it is a non issue whether they are exterminated or not amongst 99% of the Empire. Those that do care are the politicians who will eventually contribute to the formation of the Rebel Alliance. Wanted by the Empire posters throught the galaxy with the promise of reward will be more than enough incentive for the average being to turn in a Jedi. When someone turns them in, Vader and some military support drop in and wipe them out.

I agree that Anakin and many other Padawan learners might be afforded the status of Jedi Knight by the Council due to the lack of Jedi they believe are required to fight in the Clone Wars. I also agree that first Obi then Yoda are the only Jedi fortunate enough to know Palpatine's true nature before wanted posters hit Galactic Empire Post Offices everywhere ;).

[Rollo Tomassi]

Cinematically speaking, when does Palpatine crown himself Emperor and change the Republic into the Empire?
Between II and III?
After the big battle at the beginning?
Before he accuses the Jedi?
After he accuses the Jedi?
Not until the end of the film?

My theory is that after the big battle where Dooku is eliminated and Obi Wan finds out about Syo Dyas/Palpatine, there is a galactic senate scene where Chancellor Palpatine announces the big victory and the reunification of the Repbulic, then admonishes the senate for allowing things to have gotten so far out of control, and the inneffectiveness of the Jedi as "Guardians of peace and justice' of the galaxy. He calls for a NEW ORDER and a standing military. This is when he becomes Emperor. Most will be so overjoyed that he staved off the crumbling of the Republic into factions, that they will go along. It has been rumored that Jar Jar will be instrumental in aiding his rise. I think that Palpatine will trick Jar Jar into supporting him and since everyone knows Senator Jar Jar to be a staunch, honest being, it quells a lot of misgivings in the senate. Other's will have private misgivings (Organa, Mothma, Padme, etc...) but there is little they can do.

What do you guys think?

Also, around this time, the heroes return (maybe in time to witness the senate scene, maybe they hear about it afterwards) Anakin talks with Palpatine who has begun to flatter and isolate the young hero and drops subtle hints about Padme and Obi Wan. Anakin then has a reunion with Padme. It starts out fine, but then they fight and he leaves. Obi Wan has a discussion with whats left of the council about Palpatine and his new order. then he goes to see Padme about it. During this meeting she tells Obi Wan that Anakin is growing distant, falling in too much with Palpatine. Obi Wan tells her his suspicions about Palpatine. She reveals her preganacy to Obi Wan and that Anakin doesn't know. This will be a touching moment (one of many in this film.) After this she goes to the new Emperor Palpatine and he reveals everything (as previously discussed). When she threatens to tell everyone, he brings up that she is secretly married to a Jedi and her objective credibility is shot. It is then that she goes to find Anakin, finds Obi Wan instead, and the two are discovered by Anakin...

Again...what do you guys think?

[Jedi Clint]

Just a brief comment for now. I don't think Palpatine would willing tell Padme how he conquered the galaxy. Even if he did, I think it would be followed by her swift demise rather than her rushing off to tell Anakin. I don't think that (demise) will happen in E3.

I can see Palpatine giving a speech to the Senate as you described......perhaps during act 2.

[Rollo Tomassi]

Intriguing possibility by Jedi Clint
Just a brief comment for now. I don't think Palpatine would willing tell Padme how he conquered the galaxy.


As I said before, it's more for the audience's benefit, than Padme's. Remember George doesn't think we, the audience, are very clever, so he has to spell everything out. I think Palpatine is egotistical enough to spill everything to her (kind of like his conversation with Luke in ROJ). The contrived part would be Padme keeping her mouth shut. I offered up the tenuous possibility of Palpatine lording her illicit relationship with a jedi over her head. It's not much, but it's all I can come up with.

Also, he lets her go, counting on Anakin finding her and Obi Wan together later, just as the Emperor has engineered it. It's no accident she runs to find Anakin and he is not there. As soon as she leaves, he contacts Anakin to come see him. Ensuring, that she will have to find Obi Wan instead. Since Sidious has previously sewn seeds of doubt in Anakin's mind "Suggesting" that Padme and Obi Wan are together as they speak will send Anakin into a jealous rage, opening him up to the dark side and the Sith Apprentice position.

[graana]

Wow...this is a great thread...Ok, here are my two cents:
I remember reading a while ago (like pre TPM) in either the Annotated Screenplays (my fav source of possible spoilers) or maybe the ROJ novelization...but Lucas stated that "everyone who brought about the fall of the Jedi Die in ROJ"..thus tying up all the storylines in the whole saga in on eeneat presentation. NOw let's look at who pereshes. OK, Palpatine is a no brainer...and also so is Vader. Boba Fett also dies, so we can figure him into helping out...like most of you have already brought up. Don't forget about Jabba....he also dies AND is specifically noted in the ROJ novelization as killing Jedi. Now I realize that some of the controversial material in that novelization (i.e. - is Owen Obi's brother or not) may be disreguarded, but I thought this might tie in somehow to someone's theoies. And the last one, and potentally the most signifigant - Yoda perishes. Did he somehow involuntarily bring it about, does he just blame himself, or did something actually happen? You guys mention some great ideas as to how Yoda may have flubbed up or just been a scape goat...but since I just remembered this info, I thought I would post it to add some weight to your theories:crazed:

[Rollo Tomassi]

Cool Idea about Jabba! Thanks graana! Now that you said that, I remember that from the novelization too. I don't know how we'd work the Jabba angle into the film. Much like the Han Solo clone theory, it might be better suited to EU than the actual film, but I can see Boba Fett making some off-handed comment to Vader "The Hutt said he would contribute his resources to finding the Jedi in exchange for his...operations being overlooked in this New Order." Vader: "Agreed. See that it is done." This would explain why Fett was always slummin' with Jabba on Tatooine. He's the unofficial Imperial liason...

[Steingrabber]

I love this thread and I've been giving it a lot of thought but haven't really wanted to post anything until now. I really believe that Yoda is to the "light side" of the force, as Palpatine is to the dark. They're really like polar opposites. The only mistakes I can really see Yoda having made are:

1) Allowing Obi-wan to train Anakin and
2) Not knowing that Palpatine was the Sith Lord behind everything sooner

I think Yoda's take on everything is going to be that these things had to come to pass in order to fulfill the prophecy, which also states that when the chosen one is found, that dark times will follow.

[Steingrabber]

At some point in the film, Anakin will have to learn who Palpatine really is, and I've been thinking about this for a while, so here are my thoughts.

After Anakin becomes a hero of the Clone Wars(hmm. hero to the Jedi, or hero to the New order), as has been stated so often, Palpatine will take him under his wings, perhaps privately as he has already been setting up the Jedi to take a beating from the public and would possibly not want Anakin in the public arena. This will be similar to Christ being out in the desert with Satan (sorry hate to get biblical) when he shows him everything he could gain by joining him. Wouldn't your wife like to have this....How could a slave afford this....etc.

Now here's something I've been thinking of for a long time. In ANH, Vader tells Tarkin that the last time he'd felt this "tremor in the force", that it was in the presence of his "old master". He's NOT talking about Obi-wan or Palpatine, because that just wouldn't make sense..."The last time I felt Obi-wan's presence was in the presence of Obi-wan"...see, makes no sense, and Palpatine is still his master at this point. SO....who is his "OLD Master"...I think it would be interesting if Palpatine sent him to a Sith Lord (maybe all of the talk of Darth Bane showing up) or had him meet Sidious without reavealing that it's actually himself, in order to train him and seduce him. How cool would it be to see Anakin fighting Sidious. If you couldn't see his face, which I'm sure they could do, you could see him do some pretty awesome stuff. Anyways, I think they definitely have to parallel Luke's training with Yoda to Anakin's training with whoever to show the fundamental differences between the dark and the light.

Another thought that just came to me is, we all know that Dooku survives EII, what if Anakin trains under him at some point. He'll definitely have one of the fundamentals in order to train him. Anakin will hate him with a passion. "Kill your master, and take his place at my side blah blah blah..." Just like a Sith. :evil:

[Tycho]

Originally posted by Steingrabber


Now here's something I've been thinking of for a long time. In ANH, Vader tells Tarkin that the last time he'd felt this "tremor in the force", that it was in the presence of his "old master". He's NOT talking about Obi-wan or Palpatine, because that just wouldn't make sense..."The last time I felt Obi-wan's presence was in the presence of Obi-wan"...see, makes no sense, and Palpatine is still his master at this point. SO....who is his "OLD Master"...I think it would be interesting if Palpatine sent him to a Sith Lord (maybe all of the talk of Darth Bane showing up) or had him meet Sidious without reavealing that it's actually himself, in order to train him and seduce him. How cool would it be to see Anakin fighting Sidious. If you couldn't see his face, which I'm sure they could do, you could see him do some pretty awesome stuff. Anyways, I think they definitely have to parallel Luke's training with Yoda to Anakin's training with whoever to show the fundamental differences between the dark and the light.

Another thought that just came to me is, we all know that Dooku survives EII, what if Anakin trains under him at some point. He'll definitely have one of the fundamentals in order to train him. Anakin will hate him with a passion. "Kill your master, and take his place at my side blah blah blah..." Just like a Sith. :evil:

I think you're on to something 'Stein' as I once thought the same thing about the quote to Tarkin in ANH.

Here's the OTHER possibilities:

bad dialogue writing - and we know this can occur:rolleyes:

or I once thought it possible that Qui-Gon's ghost or Force-presence hung over Obi-Wan, as his hung over Luke. Qui-Gon's presence might evoke a long-burried Light Side feeling of warth and recognition in Vader that he long thought burried. Were Qui-Gon able to interfere, he wouldn't want to see his two apprentices fighting.

There's still a point to Qui-Gon being in the story in the larger perspective, not just to pass Anakin off to Obi-Wan, or Lucas wouldn't have made Qui-Gon such a large role in the story. I think that Dooku was Qui-Gon's master and therefore Obi-Wan's 'grandpa' of sorts, is still only part of it. It's got to be multiple layers of dark betrayals...

And yes, I think Anakin slays Dooku for sure and 'takes his place as a Sith Lord by doing so.' Will Anakin KNOW that Dooku is training him? That I wonder.

[Steingrabber]

Another thought I've been pondering for a while here. Will it be apparent to the audience that Anakin has become Vader. Think about how powerful it was when Vader told Luke he was his old man. Everyone was debating it until Jedi came out, and held their collective breaths when Yoda answered Luke's question. For the kids who will actually be able to see Epidode's I-VI IN ORDER as their first time viewing the films, how anti-climactic it would be if everyone knew that Anakin was Vader from the very start. We'll all know it, but for people who've never seen the movies it would be nowhere near as powerful. Who knows?:rolleyes:
Keep in mind that not everyone follows all of the news and interviews like we do, and just want to watch a movie one night.

Little Johnny (2025): "Ooohhh....Star Wars... I heard those were pretty cool movies."

[Rollo Tomassi]

"I sense something..a presence I haven't felt since..."

then later on


"A tremor in the force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old Master."

"it" refers to the tremor, not the presence. So it's perfectly reasonable (if hokey) dialogue.



I don't believe Anakin trained under any Sith Lord. He trained under Obi Wan and then went over to the Dark Side. Remember, Palpatine has been seducing young Skywalker for many years. Manipulating him so that when the time comes, the right combination of events, would force him to the dark side. Once he'd made that choice, Palpatine revealing himself would simply be a formality. it's not like Anakin would go "oooh. you tricked me. I'm going back to be a good guy now..." I don't think the dark side is that...disposable. My theory is that the only reason Anakin survives "the Battle" with Obi Wan after he drops into the molten pit or wherever is his hatred keeps him alive. He completely gives in to the darkside in order to use the Force to "float" on lava, or breathe it or whatever. His hatred keeps him from dying and he must forever hate in order to keep the channel to the darkside power open which in turn keeps his body alive. That's why he dies in ROJ. He chose the light side again and it wasn't strong enough to keep his disfigured body going.

I think there will be a scene (the Darth Vader reveal) where Palpatine explains this to Anakin (and by proxy, the audience) and Anakin agrees to become the new Sith Lord.

[Rollo Tomassi]

Since the entire Six movie Saga is about Anakin, I don't think you can get by without revealing the fact that he's Vader in III. Besides, the scene's still pretty powerful because Luke doesn't know the truth. Don't you watch the trilogy differently knowing that Vader is Luke and Leia's Dad in ANH? I do...

[bigbarada]

It's the same kind of storytelling device used in Oedipus. The audience knows who Oedipus and Jocasta and Laius really are, but the character have no clue. It's called "dramatic irony."

Actually, the secret isn't really laid out in the open right away but an attentive audience will be able to figure it out quickly. I believe it will be the same with the Anakin/Vader connection. It won't be mentioned outright but the audience will "have their suspicions" before it is confirmed in ROTJ.

(Hmmmm, I wonder what the significance of Jocasta Nu sharing a name with Oedipus' mother/wife is?)

Also, keep in mind that GL himself has claimed that there are several things that would seem to be important but will never be explained in the films. For instance, Obi-Wan's ability to retain his identity after his death. According to GL, it's something that Yoda taught him how to do between episodes 3 and 4; so we'll never see it on screen. Could explain why Qui-Gonn didn't disappear, but that's a subject for a different thread.:)

I think, graana, brings up an interesting point about Yoda also. However, I'm thinking Yoda maybe had an indirect, unknowing hand in the "fall of the Jedi."

Don't forget, Yoda's advice to Luke in ROTJ, "Do not underestimate the power of the Emperor." Spoken in clear, unbroken english so it must be important. Maybe that was Yoda's fatal mistake that helped bring about the Jedi's fall.

[Steingrabber]

I love discussing prequel possibilities with other intelligent people. It's...intoxicating. Heh heh. Anyways, okay, I can see where everyone is coming from in response to my previous thoughts. I never thought that Palpatine would pull his hood down or anything and be like "Surprise!". I would like to see some training in the dark side though and get some deeper thoughts from a Sith Lord other than just hate, kill and power. They've survived for so long under the noses of the Jedi that there's definitely some history lessons I'd love to hear. I'd just like to see some more screen time devoted to Anakin/Vader's relationship with Palpatine. It's one thing to turn to the dark side, it's another to become a Dark Lord of the Sith.

How soon in the film should the transformation take place? Should the Anakin/Kenobi duel happen at the end? I'd like to see it happen closer to the beginning. I'm concerned that there will be too many questions left unanswered. I wish GL would give us a film long enough to require a break at some point. I don't think any of us would ever complain that a SW film is too long.

[bigbarada]

Perhaps an excerpt from the Episode 1 novelization can shed some light on things:

Darth Sidious stood high on a balcony overlooking Coruscant, his concealing black robes making him appear as if he were a creature produced by the night. He stood facing the city, his eyes directed at its lights, at the faint movement of its air traffic, disinterested in his apprentice, Darth Maul, who waited to one side.

His thought were of the Sith and of the history of their order.

The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him.

He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed hin in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends strength and yields control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.

Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.

In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.

All but one.

Darth Maul shifted impatiently. The younger Sith had not yet learned his Master's patience; that would come with time and training. It was patience that had saved the Sith order in the end. It was patience that would give them their victory now over the Jedi.

The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adapted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way--old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.

When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.

The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane.

A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last.

"Tatooine is sparsely populated." His student's rough voice broke into his thoughts, and Darth Sidious lifted his eyes to the hologram. "The Hutts rule. The Republic has no presence. If the trace was corect, Master, I will find them quickly and without hindrance."

There's the original reference to Darth Bane, but this passage seems to imply that he is dead. Otherwise, why would he allow Sidious to take on an apprentice. Assuming Sidious was Bane's apprentice. It's all very general.

Sidious could be a self taught Sith and Dooku could be the apprentice Bane seduced.

I usually don't put much faith in what's mentioned in the novels but GL himself said that he worked personally with Terry Brooks to lay out the history of the Jedi and Sith. If anyone is interested in reading the passage about the Jedi's history let me know and I'll post it here.:)

[Rollo Tomassi]

Darth Bane was a thousand years before Sidious. Chances are he wasn't Bane's apprentice. But this brings up the intriguing mystery (on a far away tangent from Episode III) Who was Sidious' Master? Sidious/Palpatine was involved in Naboo politics from a very young age (as is customary on Naboo) When was he inducted into the Sith? At birth? Did his master and he live secluded away on Naboo with the intent of Palpatine working his way thru the political system to eventually be Chancellor/Emperor? Did the Sith from Bane on have a master goal of Galactic Domination or was this Palpatines idea or perhaps his masters idea? How does the change take place? When the apprentice is powerful enough, does he kill the master? or does the apprentice wait until the master dies naturally and then find the next? As I said...an intriguing tale waiting to be told...

[Tycho]

Originally posted by bigbarada
Perhaps an excerpt from the Episode 1 novelization can shed some light on things:





It bothers me that some of the EU has not been keeping consistent - or they can pretend history has been lost a little:

The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him.


This Sith's story has never been told. His order he initiated eventually took in Lord Kaan, but Kaan wasn't more than 50 years old at the most. That is 950 years after this Jedi broke with the Council.



He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed hin in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends strength and yields control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.

Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.


This describes the situation on Ruusan, but could refer to ANY part of the 1000 years war. And the Sith won over many more than 50 fully-trained deciples. There were thousands - and the almost defeated the Jedi to push them to offering power and glory as in such titles as "Lord Hoth (a Jedi Master)" and recruiting untrained children because it had gotten so bad.

Finally, Kaan shared power even though some conspired against him. He is not the strong leader they are referring to. (Note Bane came after Kaan - so it isn't Bane either)


In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.

All but one.

This is true, but first the remaining Sith decided to regroup on Ruusan, but the Jedi followed them there. Kaan took command of the Sith, but Bane wouldn't follow him and believed the Sith should be achieving their goals differently.

The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adapted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way--old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.

When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.


Bane seemed to have found his apprentice A GIRL, even before he left Ruusan. Zana (aka 'Rain') became the next Dark Lord of the Sith - a Sith witch of sorts I believe. At some point Bane went with her, or alone, to the Dxun moon of Onderaan to learn from what remained of artifacts left from Exar Kun and the Great Sith War, 2000 more years before his time....and the history goes back further than that, but it's not important for this discussion.


I have my doubts that any of this will have anything to do with the prequels, but at least I got the inconsistencies between the Ep 1 novelization and the rest of the EU straight. That they don't match exactly in the first place might be the best reason to offer the possibility that they are irrelevant. I just loved those stories and hated to see what Terry Brooks wrote discount what licensing allowed Darko Macan to establish. But Lucas wrote almost nothing, if anything, of any of that. So he might not even be aware it exists.

If you are interested in learning more about this, than I suggest the graphic novels named after the video games they compliment: Dark Forces (featuring Kyle Katarn), and the Jedi Vs. Sith 6-issue comic (featuring Darth Bane, Lord Kaan vs. Lord Hoth).

[Rollo Tomassi]

My thoughts on The Jedi Purge:

I was wondering about the possibility of seeing any part of the Purge on screen. I've always strongly felt that it was better implied and not seen. It's difficult to hunt down 10,000 Jedi across the expanse of the galaxy. Then I realized that over the last two films their ranks may be sizbly dwindled.
1. The final battle in AOTC. We see a good number of Jedi meet their demise. Cetrtainly not in the range of 10,000, but quite a few. And this battle is the beginning of
2. The Clone Wars. With the Jedi at the forefront of this brutal conflict, it is implied that countless more are destroyed. The Academy can not train replacements fast enough and thus younger Jedi are being given the Rank of Jedi Knight (such as Anakin). Those who survive until the third Episode might meet their demise in
3. The Invasion of the Jedi Temple. A majority of the remaining Jedi are caught inside when Palpatine turns on them, including all the small initiates. A few of the higher profile Jedi (Plo Koon etc) will die trying to defend the temple, but ultimately fail.

4. The Hunting. The three previous scenarios drops the remaining Jedi on the run to a couple of hundred at the most. Easy enough for Vader and his troops to dispatch at their leisure. Especially with regular citizens turning Jedi in for Reward...

Apart from the fourth, all of these will be seen on screen (the second represented by the battle at the beginning) so the Jedi Purge WILL occur on screen for the most part...


My thoughts on Tarkin:

Something about Tycho's theory just doesn't sit right with me. It's not that I don't think it's a wonderful idea, but I get that little feeling in the back of my mind that says we aren't utilising Tarkin to his fullest potential. Some kind of intricate betrayal is involved I think. But what it is, I just don't know. Does Tarkin have some kind of connection to the Jedi? Is Tarkin the key to revealing Palpatine's treachery? Perhaps Tycho's theory is only one half of the final solution. It's the final piece of the puzzle, I just can't put my finger on it. Nnnnngggg:confused: What do you guys think?

[graana]

OK, now I like the Tarkin character just as much as the next Star Wars fan......but really in the interests of the Saga as a whole, is it really nessasary to have Tarkin in the Prequels? I find it just as much, if not more interesting to have new characters. Remember, this is a galaxy we are talking about. Even though it does seem abit too close knit at times...............

[bigbarada]

I believe that Tarkin actually has a place in the prequels, as does Mon Mothma and Captain Antilles. But I think George should have exercised more restraint in introducing OT characters into the prequel trilogy. For instance, Threepio and Artoo really had no purpose in Ep1 other than George just wanted them there. Their roles could have easily been filled with other equally capable droids. Now adding OT characters who actually have a purpose just seems overkill.

[Rollo Tomassi]

I agree that Tarkin has an important role in Episode III. That's why Tycho's theory seems wrong to me. He's tossed in as the Confederate general just to be there. I think that's only part of it. Hmmmm....maybe I'm standing too close to the problem...:(

[Omega Fett]

GNT
Jedi Master

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney,Australia
Posts: 1724
Re: Mace's Death

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by oafy-wan
Maybe Boba kills Mace out of revenge for Jango. Perhaps Boba helps Anakin kill the Jedi and that's how they knew each other in "Empire". I know Boba is a little boy, but it is a shocking possibility.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I was thinking the same thing,

Jango finds Mace,Mace Fights Jango,Mace kills Jango,Boba finds Mace,Boba fights Mace,Boba Kills Mace,Han kills Boba

---------------------------------------

Uh Han didnt kill Boba,he simply knocked him into the sarlacc pit,if ur a hardcore boba fett fan like me,you would know he didnt die,he flew out of the pit via his jetpack and dropped a thermal detonater down its mouth killing it. he was burned horendously though do to the digestive acids of the sarlacc. Dengar and Neehlah found him and nursed him back to health and so on

^__^

[Jargo]

Not in the movies he didn't. Which is the topic under discussion if you hadn't already noticed.........

I think the purge will be seen onscreen in some way. not the killing but the after effects. Similar to the sandcrawler and dead jawas or the two bodies smoking at the homestead. Enough to chill the soul but not enough to turn your stomach and spoil you viewing pleasure.

Tarkin has a place in the prequels. How did he get to be such a big cheese? it's easier to accept him in the whole story if you realise how important he is to the emperor.
As for Mon Mothma and Antilles, they should be seen but not play an active role as extras in the background somewhere around Bail Organa and his palace. it doesn't make sense to have the leaders of the rebellion as these characters if we never get mention of them at least beforehand somewhere to show their significance to the characters. I'm not suggesting whole yards of backstory or "have you met Mon Mothma, regional governer of chandrilla internal affairs..." sort of stuff. But just to know they were in the background lends some recognition factor when they play active roles later on. A glimpse of mon Mothma in a meeting on Alderaan then the next ime shes's seen she is the rebel leader. It makes sense that she's a leader if we know she was a leader beforehand. Otherwise she's just a boring chick with bad hair and a habit of trailing off in despair..........

[Tycho]

Rollo, you are correct about Tarkin playing some kind of strategic betrayal hand in the prequels to establish his military expertise and earn him his big role Emperor Jargo accurately refers to. He becomes a Grand Moff, which at least sounds pretty impressive, even if Grand Moffs are only around the galaxy for a mere 18 years. I'm guessing that would still look impressive on a resume'.

But think about it, if Tarkin is Dooku's general for the Confederacy, but at the same time he's Palpatine's mole, when Dooku is killed in Episode 3 and all-of-the-sudden Tarken just surrenders the Confederacy, or leads them into a trap, plays ignorant of it, comes out the sympathetic hero for the Outer Rim, and gets to negotiate a treaty where he walks away with his own dignity - and a fancy new title - then Tarkin betrays the 'Rebels' - an all too familiar role for him, causing enemies of Palpatine to feel pain!

His EU history (almost soley Rogue Planet and Cloak of Deception) tell of him being the military defense leader and eventual governor of Eriadu, then a sector military overseer, finally using Trade Federation ships in his fleet. He is supposed to serve the Republic, but is in a position to break off with the men under his command, and serve local interests (the Confederacy on the Outer Rim). Meanwhile, it's still equally possible that Tarkin is in the Republic Navy loyal to Palpatine all along.

I agree there's not enough evidence to support my theory. I just fancy it would be cool, and CAN make sense if that's the card Lucas plays for Tarkin.

[Rollo Tomassi]

Well, I think one of two scenarios are possible. Dooku knows that Tarkin is working for both he and Sidious at the same time. Or Dooku thinks Tarkin is loyal to HIM, but secretly he is working for Sidious/palpatine.
I guess my problem is that neither the Tarkin theories or the Mothma theories we've come up with are integral to the plot. They just seemed "tacked on" in order to have them in the story/movie.
I'm confident of the Jar Jar one because he A. inadvertantly helps Palpatine become Emperor, and B. Helps Padme and the others escape afterwards. His presence is justified.
Tarkin and Mothma seem to be in our version simply because they show up later in the saga. If that's the case, we'd need to show Dodonna, Ackbar, etc...which we don't. maybe it's just enough to have them as background "emerging characters" (as G. Lu likes to call them;) ) rather than being integral to the plot. Sort of all or nothing.
But if George is indeen courting gabriel Byrne to play Tarkin (as we suspect), he must have a bigger part. I don't know. If we could come up with different scenarios for Tarkin....

And on a Side Note, for fun I took all the different plot points we discussed and combined them into a definitive synopsis. All it was missing was a title...so I gave it one. Want to hear it? Well, let me hear your s first...:)

[Tycho]

Epsisode Three: Roll 'Ot Tam Assassins?

(bad play on your screen name....)

The Tarkin theory:

1) Even if Gabriel Byrne plays him, he doesn't have to do more than Oliver Ford Davies did in Episode One.

2) Peter Cushing was great in E4, but he didn't do THAT much then either. Nor was he integral to the plot of ANH. Simply, Vader could NOT pull the trigger to end the existence of Alderaan, as it would ruin much more credibility towards any redemption Lucas planned for him later. Meanwhile Tarkin is screen-candy in either movie (though he is GREAT screen-candy).

3) Some background characters' pasts are good to see cameo's of, especially if they are important figures later - like Bail Organa who also isn't going to do THAT much even though Jimmy Smits is playing him. Mon Mothma is clearly important, but Admiral Ackbar is not. He was probably not Tarkin's slave even at the birth of the Empire, but rather still a Mon Calamari military officer (was that Ackbar's beginning - always in the military - or was he like a scientist or bontanist or something before and took command of the Mon Calamari fleet AFTER he escaped from Tarkin? It's all EU so it doesn't apply here anyway... -I'm just saying (appologetically to his fans) that Ackbar is not important in the prequels and Mon Calamari (the planet ) won't be seen anyway. Only it's sniveling Senators Tessk and Tiikes (if they aren't the same Quarren in the first place) will be there to represent Mon Calamari. I'm not certain if they have 2 delegations for both races, or if the Quarren won a lot of elections...

Meanwhile, other leaders: Jan Dadonna was an Imperial Star Destroyer commander (not necessary to see him in the prequels). General Reikeen was from Alderaan's defense force and would likely be "Saving Private Reikeen" back in those days ...(If Han Solo will be 7, Reikeen might be 17 - 21 in the prequels), and General Madine would be about as young in Corellia's defense force and also need not be seen (nor will Corellia in all likelihood - it looks like Los Angeles so wouldn't make a big screen impression). Piett and Veers would also be just starting their careers in the Republic's military (or their home planet's defense forces), and they would be unnecessary distractions. Same with Grand Admiral Thrawn (as if an EU character would be so lucky...)

Now SATE PESTAGE (Imperial Dignitary # 2) could have a speaking role. The Imperial Dignitaries' significance might be explained at last...

So Tarkin, Mon Mothma, Sate Pestage, Bail Organa - that's about enough.

No Ackbar, Dadonna, Madine, Reikeen, Veers, Piett, Motti, etc.

EU's Garm Bel Ibis (Corellian) has the best chance for ANY otherwise EU character as he is important in the Rebellion's birth.

I take back what I said about Dadonna, as it might be important to show that he was one of the first Destroyer captains to serve Palpatine, and later decided the Empire was immoral, so we see him show up again, on the Rebels' side. It's a stretch, but MAYBE.

[bigbarada]

I don't think that GL will use EU as a reference for any characters in the prequels. If he needs a specific character to fulfill a specific role then he will just write up a new one himself and let the EU writers do damage control.

Tarkin: I think he plays a big role somehow in EP3. Leia initially referred to him as "Governor Tarkin," so maybe he is a civilian world leader who is frocked into military service just before Ep4.

Mon Mothma: I expect her to be introduced in the Senate or maybe have a small cameo when Padme goes into hiding on Alderaan.

General Dodonna: Since the idea of him as a Star Destroyer Commander is EU, then I expect to see him as a Leiutenant, Captain or maybe even a major fighting alongside Bail Organa. Rank in the military is not as easy to come by as everyone thinks and taking twenty years to go from Leiutenant to General is normal by the US military's standards. Although Dodonna also getting frocked after a major battle is not out of the question.

Captain Antilles: Wouldn't he be about Han's age in EP3? HE didn't really look that old.

My personal rules for anticipating possible plotlines:
1. Disregard all EU, because I know GL does.
2. This has to look good or interesting on screen, so long drawn out expositions and monologues are out of the question.
3. GL is the master of ambiguity. Did we get a description of Aurra Sing's past in Ep1 or even Boba Fett's in the OT? GL loves to put as little into the movie as possible about characters and their backgrounds. Did anyone even mention Mon Mothma's name in ROTJ? Or Wickets?
4. Disregard all EU!!

[Rollo Tomassi]

I agree on the chance of seeing any EU characters in the films is slim to none.

Okay, Governors (or Moffs and grand Moffs) are the new political leaders in the NEW ORDER, so perhaps Tarkin is intoduced in that capacity after palpatine announces his Imperialship. Somebody (Obi Wan perhaps) recognizes Tarkin from the big battle in the first third of the movie and ties this together with Dooku's remarks, just a little extra clue to show how slimy Palaptine is before he reveals his sliminess and all the "little clues" become insignificant. I guess. I'm getting too frustrated over a tiny thing.

Where are your titles? bigb?

[bigbarada]

Revenge of the Sith
Fall of the Jedi
The Death of Hope
Anakin Spanks His Evil Monkey
Tyranny Reborn
Whole Lotta Jedi Killin' Goin' On
The Fall of the Republic

[Jedi Clint]

I've always liked:

Star Wars Episode III Dawn of an Empire

[Rollo Tomassi]

Star Wars Episode III: The New Order

[GNT]

Here are my titles:

Star Wars: Episode 3: Mace's Death
Star Wars: Episode 3: The New Twin Suns
Star Wars: Episode 3: A new Empire
Star Wars: Episode 3: I hope I make a come back - Maul

[The Overlord Returns]

Just consider the fact that ep 3 will have a four letter title. This would follow with the OT, and what seems to be shaping up for the PT

The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Rise of the Empire
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi

so.....either Rise, or Birth, or dawn of the Empire would all make sense.

[Tycho]

Thank you Overlord. That is some good reasoning. Now it'd be great if we got back to the E3 plot discussion at hand. This thread was the best on the whole forum - or any forum for that matter, but we digressed into this "name the movie" deal which ultimately proved the ground for dumping out a lot of people's silly name ideas.

I think 1 of 2 things should happen with this thread:

1) it should continue to be updated when new evidence for Episode 3's storyline becomes available or a new turn in the topic takes its course

or

2) it should be allowed to fall back into the archives (esentially die out) until we need it again.

I'd like new people who read this to be able to participate intelligently in this awesome thread if they'd like and not get into a bunch of title hollerings - there's a separate thread for that already - and it's mostly jokes (I did Back In Black and wrote out ACDC's new lyrics for Darth Vader). But it just doesn't feel right for this thread.

For option number 1, I thought of something else we didn't consider for E3 or even E2:

Obi-Wan: "He was the best STAR PILOT in the galaxy..."

and "When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot."

Statement #2 is true - Anakin was a great pod racer pilot but even at the end of Phantom, Obi-Wan with beginning to teach Anakin, must have realized he was an amateur who got lucky in the N-1 fighter he took from Naboo. 'That was the will of the Force' and his podracing reflexes helped him navigate the Trade Federation ship. But what he did hardly qualifies Jake's Anakin as a STAR PILOT.

So for Statement #1 - Hayden's Anakin must fly star fighter craft in combat. The yellow speeder chase car on Coruscant isn't a qualified Star Fighter either.... We are talking N-1's, TIE Fighters, and what else in Anakin / Vader's history? The Jedi Starfighter? Will Anakin be shown flying one? Not in E2 - it doesn't look that way anyway. Will he fly a Z-95 Headhunter (precursor to the X-wing?) Will he fly anything like a fighter craft on screen during the prequels? (as portrayed by Hayden Christensen)???

Now there's something new to talk about. If and when....

[Obi-Don]

The podracer and the airtaxi are not like driving a car.I would think they are like flying because they do not limit themselfs to the ground.So in a certain point a view Anakin is a pilot. For a kid who never got any real training on how to fly,he is doing a good job.

[Jargo]

I think what the others are saying Obi Don, is that flying pods and taxis doesn't require the same skills that flying a starfighter which traverses the deep space regions does. A pod or a taxi can be flown by luck and rough talent. But a starfighter requires immense skill and honed and refined instincts to pilot. Remember Han's words to Luke? " it aint like dusting crops kid" that's pretty much how this is. Anyone could learn to fly a crop duster but it takes intense training and skill to pilot fighter jet plane. and to pilot a space faring vessel, well look how much training the NASA pilots get.
Sure Anakin has raw talent but he doesn't really show himself to be a starpilot in the first two movies unless there's something we don't know yet. he does pilot a ship from Naboo to Tatooine though. Perhaps something happens in that journey to show his pilot skills to the max?

[Obi-Don]

I agree with you on this.What I was getting at was his skill at a early age.If he could do what he did at his age and without training.He would be kicka$$ as a pliot with training.

[Jargo]

Oh for sure - with training no doubts he will be a fine pilot. No wonder Obi-Wan is scared of Anakins piloting in the trailer clip... Obi says something like "how many times have I told you to stay away from the power couplings?" So obviously Obi is instructing Anakin at the time we see them in EP2. So to a large extent it's simply raw talent that Obi moulds into shape that makes him the best star pilot in the Galaxy. Either that or Obi Wan is an old fart with memory loss in ANH. :p

[Jedi Clint]

Obi Wan gave Luke a total line of crap almost from beginning to end during their initial conversation in ANH. I am taking less and less of it for granted as the story of the PT is laid out before us. Kenobi (and the galaxy) needed Luke to follow him to Alderaan. There would be no time for him to approach Luke under the ideal circumstances, teach him of his past, and then take him to Yoda where his training would be completed. He could sense Luke's frustration with Owen, and knew he better come up with a yarn that would push Luke to follow in his "wonderful" father's foot-steps, "avenge his death", and fulfill his dreams of adventure amongst the stars. Keep that in mind when basing speculation on what Kenobi told Luke during their initial conversation.

[Jargo]

It makes you wonder about the line "and he was a good friend, a good friend..." From the looks of things they weren't that close really. Well maybe George wants us to think they are but they don't seem that close to me. More like a younger/older brother relationship. Obi forever scolding Anakin for doing his own thing and not heeding the tutelege of his master. Anakin just whining about being the best there ever was and how the jedi order is old and fusty and there has to be a better way of doing things. Stamping his feet like a spoiled kid. maybe Obi just gets completely fed up with Anakin and pushes him into the lava to shut him up....... :rolleyes:

Okay, serious now :)

Sure Obi spun Luke a line. How else would a crazy old wizard get offworld unless he got the help of an eager but gullible kid with good eyes and a strong healthy mind he could mould how he saw fit.
Obi must have tried the same on Anakin when he first started to train him but quickly realised how willful Anakin was. Instead of Obi just spouting the Jedi mantra at a dull and doughfaced padawan learner, he discovered that he had a bright spark who was going to be a great jedi Knight. Obi siezed upon the challenge of teaching Anakin and taming the wildness. Rather that than sit for hours with a dullard as the other Jedi did.
In time both Obi and Anakin grew to know each other well and were able to predict the others mood or movements and act accordingly on their missions. They became a double act or a team. Anakin could learn faster than Obi could teach and this lead to arguments. Obi could placate Anakin for short spaces of time but he could never tame him.Anakin outgrew Obi.
They were never friends but were indeed close. Close as any two people who spend a lot of time together can be. A working relationship that really worked.
by the time we see Obi in ANH his regrets and remorse for what he did to Anakin have consumed his memories. His comment about Anakin being a good friend may only refer to the way Anakin was faithful as a padawan and came to Obi's rescue on Geonosis. One 'exciting' incident is enough to give someone call to assert that a person is a friend, is it not?
Maybe Obi concentrates on Anakin the adventurous father of Luke rather than his Mother the equally adventurous Padme because he doesn't want Luke asking awkward questions about his Mother. Where she ended up for instance and what happened to her. If Obi could have prevented something awful happening to both of them and didn't then his story is totally shameful and Obi would then be a figure of derision in this saga. Man that would be too much if Obi caused Padme to die somehow. true greek tragedy story telling..... :cry:

[chewie]

During the ten years between epI and II, how could a kid no older than Anakin not become a friend of sorts to a person who is basically a full-time teacher/mentor? IMO, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship may have become more like father and son. And as most teens get, they want to get away from their parents as soon as they're big enough, but still for the most part love them. Anakin, of course, is a much more troubled teen than most, so this plays into him growing apart from Obi-Wan as angrily/violently as it ends up.

And as for Obi-Wan telling Luke that his father was already a great pilot when he first met him, the only evidence of that was his flying into/destroying the droid control ship. While that wasn't exactly piloting skill, and definitely not "great", for a kid to do what even trained adults couldn't do (destroy the control ship) I assume would seem amazing to those around Anakin. Considering that Anakin is so powerful in the force anyway, all things in the physical world would be easy tasks, as it doesn't require much effort to do something with the force aiding your movements. So Anakin could be considered great in all things even without having to actually ever do it.

[Tycho]

Well, this thread has been rejuvenated!

First I'm not going to quote or repeat what anyone said, but I am going to refer to a lot of it, so backtrack to my last post and refer to what people said after that...

I strongly agree with what Emperor Jargo said about a starfighter pilot skills. But as far as the TWO flights we know Anakin makes in Episode 2, neither are in starfighters that we're aware of. From Naboo to Tatooine, and then from Tatooine to Geonosis will be in the light courrier vehicle the new Queen of Naboo lends to her Senator Padme. Anakin may have to contend with asteroids or droid fighters as Obi-Wan and Jango do in their chase - but what would be the point of doing that twice in the same movie? If Anakin is a better pilot than Obi-Wan, but the latter can do that while also engaging in a running fire-fight with Fett, of course the padawan can imitate the master... and again, Anakin's ship does not appear to be a starfighter. I think it is the ship we see approaching Geonosis in the BREATHING trailer. Not too exciting looking - and possibly Republic-made, not necessarily Naboo.

Jedi Clint - you're back with your famous "Obi-Wan is a liar" saga. It does prove to be true in a lot of "points of view," doesn't it?Just for you Hasbro is going to make a Deluxe Figure of Obi-Wan with a home polygraph test. Your words do make sense, but when considering Anakin's character as it has already been established by Jake, I think it's fair to assume he really is a great starfighter pilot by now. He'd be extremely diligent in that aspect of his training. But yeah, who knows what else Obi-Wan lies about?

Back to Jargo and Chewie too now, I think there was a point being made in Phantom that Obi-Wan was not ready in the eyes of the Council. They would decide when he should take his trials and evidently not in the middle of the Trade Federation crisis. So Obi-Wan's being elevated to Knighthood because he reached to the Force and defeated the Dark Side in the form of an actual Sith Lord, was not in the Council's eyes the same thing as saying he was old enough to responsibly train a Padawan. That being said, I don't think Anakin ever sees Obi-Wan as a father-figure. The Older Brother role that Jargo describes is dead-on. The same goes in reverse for Obi-Wan's viewpoint of Anakin, though there's possibly always some underlying resentment that "this is the kid Qui-Gon dumped on me - and now he's my responsability." I think that Qui-Gon's being looked at as the father-figure of two sometimes rivalrous siblings is much more the reality, here. Let me be very clear that