Midichlorian replication [Archive] - SirStevesGuide.com Forums

gtrain29

08-05-2003, 01:42 PM

I always thought midichlorians were a dumb idea ruining the magic of fantasy by attempting to make SW more sci fi. Anyway, if these midichlorians are microorganisms living inside your cells, then why don't people just take a blood sample and start culturing these things in labs?
They could replicate gazillions of these "test tube" midichlorians which could then be injected into people where they would take up residence in a "symbiotic" relationship making the host force-sensitive.
In fact, they could set up the midichlorian lab next to the cloners and make an army of jedi instead of soldiers.

I don't know if that had been mentioned before, but the thought occurred to me the other day. I, personally, had never even thought about how someone is able to use the force before the PT, nor did I care. Yoda's & Obi-Wan's explanations of the force were good enough for me. Fantasies like star wars don't need things explained with science. I gave up reading the novels because the writers always tried to make it into science fiction which completely contradicts with the things that made SW great: Jedi & the force, Han's luck, lightsabers actually working, a desert planet being inhabited by giant banthas dewbacks and rontos even though there's no foliage or water, and so on-- these things weren't the point of the story do needed no explanation. Okay, I'm rambling now so I'll stop. But if anyone knows the answer please respond.

stillakid

08-05-2003, 03:09 PM

Exhaust Port

08-05-2003, 10:19 PM

I think that the idea of midichlorians creates too many stupid possibilities. It seems that it would be possible to do blood doping with Midichlorians. Instead of boosting your red blood cell count you would boost your Midichlorians and there by boost your Force ability. Having trouble in battle? Take a 200cc shot of pure Midichlorians and you'll be downright invincible.

Dr Zoltar

08-06-2003, 01:31 AM

stillakid

08-06-2003, 11:10 AM

Sounds similar to the Jedi Knight video games. There was the Valley of the Jedi with some strange artifact that could give or remove Jedi powers. Not that I agree with that. I choose to think that the Midichlorians are a by-product of having the force. Like when one's white blood cell count goes up when one is sick.

So maybe that's what happened to Palpatine in the end. He used too much Force, overloaded his system, and they exploded outward. Hmm?

Interesting rationalization for it, like JediTricks has mentioned. There are still weird problems with the concept plus the fact that it doesn't mesh at all with the original trilogy, but if we have to reconcile the Prequels somehow, it's a start.

In the end, I'll go to my death bed believing the George just randomly tossed them in as a cheap and easy way to "show" that Anakin had Force potential...and did so without thinking through the ramifications for the rest of the story. He did it with this element in the Prequels as well as other things, so there is definitely a case to be made for my argument.

Imperial Monarche

08-11-2003, 09:30 AM

Well, I'm not personally agreeing or disagreeing with the midichlorian concept, nor do I really care, but frokm the way I understood Qui-Gon's explanation of them, everyone has midichlorians. Those that have more are more force sensitive, but even that, everyone has the ability to use the force. He said that "when you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them". the problem with most people is that they are too impatient to quiet their mind, or maybe the more of a count you have, the easier it is to listen to them. And with that cloning Jedi stuff, maybe the midichlorians are built for one person only and do not exisit in a symbionic relationship with someone else. This is all speculation seeing how Lucas set up the whole thing and went absolutely nowhere with it...yet. That's the problem with some of us that complain about a certain idea introduced in the prequals that seem like they were just thrown in cause Lucas didn't want to think, we haven't finished the trilogy. After Ep.III comes out and there's still no more mention of them, then I'll be like, Yeah, that was dumb. But, some of you have said there doesn't need to be explanations in fantasy. Why? Everything needs some kind of explanation behind it, others wise then it becomes a dumb idea that just comes out of nowhere. The prequals were basically an "explanation trilogy". Some need to learn to understand that because they are almost over.

gtrain29, you said that he is turning this saga into science fiction...aren't they suppose to be? walk into a video store and ask them where star wars is located in the store, see what section they take you too.

stillakid

08-11-2003, 05:30 PM

gtrain29, you said that he is turning this saga into science fiction...aren't they suppose to be? walk into a video store and ask them where star wars is located in the store, see what section they take you too.

Just my take on that very interesting question...

What makes Star Wars most interesting to me, anyway, as opposed to other "sci fi" like Star Trek or Babylon 5, for instance, is that it hasn't gone the way of "techy" storytelling which tends to be the fallback position of most "space" tales. Star Wars has far more in common with a western or opera or fairy tale than anything else we've seen set in space. It spawned the idea that space movies didn't have to be all about flying saucers and weird guitar feedback for a soundtrack. Instead, we have been treated to symphonic accompaniment (John Williams), horrific thrills (ALIEN), incredible action (ALIENS, ID4) and other filmmaking innovations because of it. The story is the thing which drew most of us here some 25 years ago and that is what we were seeking above all else when we flocked back to the theater for Episode I.

Jaff

08-21-2003, 11:20 PM

Just listen to the little parisites infesting your body and you'll be one with this desperate excuse to explain jedi powers to the unimaginative masses. In fact Jedi are trill based on the race from Star Trek!!!

As you can see I don't like the concept of Midi"thingamagigs". In fact each time I watch the film I try to ignore the conversations where they are mentioned. Thank god they were not mentioned in the next film. I know Midichlorine tablets are part of the SW universe now, but if you want me to accept it you'll have to torture me!!!! :cry:

Kidhuman

08-23-2003, 04:18 PM

Okay, sitting here reading this thread something dawned on me.

There was no need to explain Midichlorians in the Ot. There were only 3 Jedi's that were shown, Ben, Luke, Yoda. They both knew he had high levels most likely. So there was no need to explain it.

Now, in the Prequels, there are many Jedi running around. The werent thought of as extinct yet. This is the way the figured out who had the most potential and how to rank them in the academy. With the showing of more Jedi, there was a need for an explanation. They would go from planet to planet with there level counters and all. If they were doing that in the OT they would have been found out. Instead they knew who would have the best chance to take out vader and concentrated one last ditch effort into Luke.

Make any sense?

stillakid

08-23-2003, 07:05 PM

There was no need to explain Midichlorians in the Ot.
....Make any sense?

Well, beyond the existence of them in the first place causing problems with character development and the way the audience was originally meant to perceive Luke (empathy vs sympathy), the question of explanation comes up during Luke's hastened training. As you correctly point out, there are only three Jedi during that time. But Luke is never fully ready for at least 2/3 of that time and Obi dies fairly soon in the story. So the necessity to get Luke out of the blocks sooner than later becomes apparent lest the Sith have no true adversaries.

Which brings us to the question: if Luke's expedited training was indeed so necessary to the struggle, why wouldn't Ben or Yoda tell Luke about the Midi's? :confused: Instead of droning on and on about "the nature of the Force" and "feelings" and other intangibles, why wouldn't they have cut to the chase and given Luke the shortcut to understanding how and why humans can use this mysterious Force?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? :confused:

Kidhuman

08-23-2003, 10:23 PM

stillakid

08-23-2003, 10:34 PM

It wouldnt have mattered if they had. He was their last shot at it. No need to confuse the poor kid even more. If his midi count was 1 or if it was 1,000,000 it really did not matter. They waited 18 years for him. Why bother to give him info that he really has nothing to do with anything. It would have been like training him for apple picking and explaining oranges to him.

What do you mean "confuse"? :confused: Like "Stretch out with your feelings" is crystal clear?! If somebody told you to do that, what on earth would you do? What exactly does it mean to "stretch out with your feelings"?

However, if somebody sat you down and said, "Look, there's this thing we call the Force which is some kind of energy field which holds it all together. Somebody a long time ago figured out a way to tap into it so we can levitate stuff, read minds, see the future...crap like that. Cool, huh?" You say, "F'in yeah! How do I do it?" "Now don't freak out or anything, but there are these little microscopic creatures our scientists found swimming around in our cells which seem to be the bridge. If you quiet your mind enough, you can actually communicate with them enough so that you are able to tap into this Force thingie."

Okay, so you choose. Would you be more confused by someone explaining the mechanism of how this works? Or by somebody tossing out bumper sticker sayings like "Stretch out with your feelings"?

The Rebellion was up against a wall. It's only hope was this kid. (In a universe where Midi's existed...they didn't until the late 1990's) the remaining Jedi Masters should have been wise enough to cut to the chase and get the kid up and running as soon as possible. They didn't know if he'd understand the training or not, and in fact, when he left Dagobah it sure seemed to them like he didn't. Now suppose just for a second that Yoda or Ben had sat down and explained the mechanism to the kid. Get that part of the training out of the way a whoooollllee lot sooner and they would have had more time to talk about control and patience. But noooooo. Luke had to "stretch out with his feelings" whatever the hell that means.

Kidhuman

08-23-2003, 11:07 PM

It basically means kick bac, relax and let yourself go. Sense what is around you. Maybe they did tell Luke about thewm. Maybe by then it was basic knowledge about Midi's and they learned it in school. All I know is there was no need for an explanation in the ot because of the three of them. If there were dozens and the academyopened were people were brought in for training. They had tosee who goes were. Who will be a Jedi, depended on the Midi, count. Luke had no choice. He basically was thrown into it. He knew his dad was one and when he saw ben he basically said, here I go. He took off with training, and went foward. Midi's didnt have anything todo with training. It just told you how strong the force was in you. Anakin's happened to be off the meter. They knew Luke had them. Midi counts have nothing to do with learning how to stretch your feelings.

Jaff

08-24-2003, 01:53 AM

Quoted from Kidhuman

They would go from planet to planet with there level counters and all. If they were doing that in the OT they would have been found out. Instead they knew who would have the best chance to take out vader and concentrated one last ditch effort into Luke.

Make any sense?

I don't think that midiclorians do make sense, because they are really not needed. Jedi can sense the force. Qui-Gon could sense there was something about Anakin. I always believed that the force is analagous to being in the water. Jedi are dudes that are in the water, and whenever one of them used the force they could sense the ripples moving around them. Ordinary folks who don't have any Jedi powers would not notice ripples because they are not aware of them. So in Episode I Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can sense that someone is using the force out of the ordinary. This was Palpy hiding himself from the Jedi. In Empire the Emperor calls on Vader saying: "There's a disturbance in the force." The translation is "that lame brain boy of yours is out there using the force and is training somehow, we gotta do something!" TO me it is an emotional mental ability to sense those who can use the force. I think that was why in the book Obi-Wan felt threatened by Jango Fett during their meeting in his appartment. They can feel the awareness and potential of others. Midichlorians take away Jedi's ownership of their own powers, and belittles the concept of the force. Nowadays audiences don't think mentally, they think visually, that's why explosions and Special effects are more popular than intelligent, thought out scripts. This goes for SW, people can't use their imagination to figure out the force, so they have to be shown what it means (present company excluded of course), and I think it was a lame concept as I said before in my previous post.

Kidhuman

08-24-2003, 12:51 PM

All midi's do is measure how much someone can feel that ripple in the water. All I am saying is there was no need to explain that in the OT, hence no mention of it. They werent going around recruiting in the OT. They bet the ranch on one person. That was it.

Fast foward(our time), rewind(story time) to the prequels. There is a ton of Jedi's. How do they know how strong the force is a certain person? Midichlorians. They use it to measure ones strength with the force. That is it. It doesnt say if you have more you are better than the next. Anakins are higher than Yodas. Yoda can channel it the force better than Anakin. It is like beating someone up twice the size of you. They might have more muscle mass but dont know how to use it.

Being that there was no need to recruit Luke, they just ambushed him. Obi-Wan knew what he was doing. Was he hiding out on Tatooine or did he just show up there to get Luke? Was he on Dagobah? How did he know Yoda was there? I say it was all planned on in advance when they hid him. No midi's necessary(sp?) there. It was a last ditch effort to restore balance to the force. One shot, no need for explanation.

My opinion, were they needed........no.
Is it stupid..........probably.

There was no mention of Midi's in any of theother movies, just in TPM. It is not needed in any other story. Just a quick explanation of how much potential a person has. Anakin was supposed tobe the strongest of all Jedi. He has the highest count. If he could of controlled it, then we wouldnt of had the OT in basic sense. He would have been able towipe out the Sith with ease.

Jaff

08-24-2003, 01:09 PM

Your right on those points kidhuman, I guess Midi's just drive me nuts. In the end I think the Jedi could find out about all the jedi hopefuls just by being near them and feeling their powers that echoed around them. It's a feeling, making it into a science just stinks. It's like people who can read minds, they can just sense when someone around them is dangerous, or had potential.

TheDarthVader

08-25-2003, 11:01 PM

Just because midi's weren't in the OT doesn't mean they weren't in the OT...okay I know, you don't follow me. Here are some examples:

1. In ROTJ Luke has constructed a lightsaber. How did he know how to do that? I didn't see any part in the movie that showed us how he learned to make a lightsaber. :confused:
2. In ROTJ Luke proves to be a worthy lightsaber combatant versus Darth Vader. Wait!! I didn't see in the OT were Luke learned to combat so elegantly...? or practiced using a lightsaber against another lightsaber. :confused:

Possibly Yoda did tell Luke about Midi's...we just didn't see it.

stillakid

08-25-2003, 11:15 PM

Kidhuman

08-25-2003, 11:23 PM

Yeah great, but you're ignoring my question: Why didn't anyone tell Luke about them onscreen? It was the obvious and most non-confusing path to understanding how to actually use the Force and neither of the Jedi Masters mentioned it even once. Instead they used lofty and unspecific phrases which meant nothing really. So instead of Luke becoming a Jedi in just 1 and a half films, it takes him twice the time.

But that's not the only problem with Midi existence, but I don't feel like jumping back into that right now.

Ben really didnt teach him much. So he gets ruled out. Yoda tought him a few flips and how to levitate objects. Then when we see him next he is dead. I am sure as a ghost they couldnt of told him because they didnt have the time. And I goback to my original point that there was no need to explain it to him. Anakin never hadit explained to him. Just a quick blood sample, he went for a nap and Qui-Gon talked to Ben about it. So, does Anakin know about them? No one explained what they do or how they work. Just that they were off the scale and the more you had the more potential you had with the force. So as the old saying goes "Don't sweat the little things" Le tit be. Dont lose sleep over Midi's.

stillakid

08-25-2003, 11:37 PM

Ben really didnt teach him much. So he gets ruled out. Yoda tought him a few flips and how to levitate objects. Then when we see him next he is dead. I am sure as a ghost they couldnt of told him because they didnt have the time. And I goback to my original point that there was no need to explain it to him. Anakin never hadit explained to him. Just a quick blood sample, he went for a nap and Qui-Gon talked to Ben about it. So, does Anakin know about them? No one explained what they do or how they work. Just that they were off the scale and the more you had the more potential you had with the force. So as the old saying goes "Don't sweat the little things" Le tit be. Dont lose sleep over Midi's.

I disagree, there is no good reason for them to not give Luke the shortcut to Force use (aside from Lucas actually inventing them in the late 1990s of course). So we can leave it at that. :)

But the bigger problem with Midi's is that now, instead of Luke Skywalker being "one of us," a normal human being, someone we can empathize with, he is instead a superhuman with superpowers and potential that normal audience members could never relate to. In the 1977 version of Star Wars, Luke was just a naive farmboy who gets caught up in events much bigger than he ever could have dreamed of. Through his own strength and perserverence, he overcomes the greatest challenges in the galaxy. But now, with Midi's in the mix, he's got a leg up already and is predisposed to success. The insurmountable challenge from 1977 is reduced to a minor obstacle that Luke obviously can easily survive. The boy is a superhero, of course he'll win. But before, pre-Midi's, it wasn't necessarily a foregone conclusion.

Jaff

08-26-2003, 12:46 AM

The midichlorian debate is basically about two points of view. Either you see the force as a biological dependancy, or as a mental grasp of the environment one lives in. Either way it gives a person extraordinary understanding and awareness of life and manipulating the laws of nature.

I myself must be inept on this subject because I go with the second explanation rather than Midi's even though it is a part of SW.

As for Luke learning about a lightsaber, it was three years between SW and Empire. Luke is a tinkerer like his father, it's quite possible he could have taken apart the saber several times to figure out how it works and had a fundamental grasp of how to create the device before he lost his first saber.

The debate about why wasn't Luke told about Midi's can be approached two ways. Either you accept midi's as a law since it was in Episode I and you would be right to think that, therefore you would wonder why they would not have told Luke. To them: What would it matter to tell him, they had just enough time to show him a few tricks of the trade, and not enough time to teach him all the details of the Jedi, and their order! If you do not accept the Midi-issue (like stuborn Jaff) ignore the Midi problems because you do not accept them. However I like for others to challenge my perception of SW so I don't think I'm a know it all like some surfers. So can someone please convince me why midi's would make more sense existing than not existing without saying that Jedi are X-men. In my opinion I believe that Midi's defeat what SW is about. In Episode IV, when Luke was in the trenches he was using the targeting device, and Ben's voice said "Let Go". He turned off the machine and used his instinct by faith. Faith in one's ability is a constant theme in SW. By entering Midi's it turns the film into Faith in Parasites.

Please note that I am not bashing my opinion on heads, just giving a blunt opinion. I respect all of your thoughts, and that's why I really want someone to either say, your right or wrong. If I'm wrong make me see it!

stillakid

08-26-2003, 01:13 AM

The debate about why wasn't Luke told about Midi's can be approached two ways. Either you accept midi's as a law since it was in Episode I and you would be right to think that, therefore you would wonder why they would not have told Luke. To them: What would it matter to tell him, they had just enough time to show him a few tricks of the trade, and not enough time to teach him all the details of the Jedi, and their order! If you do not accept the Midi-issue (like stuborn Jaff) ignore the Midi problems because you do not accept them. However I like for others to challenge my perception of SW so I don't think I'm a know it all like some surfers. So can someone please convince me why midi's would make more sense existing than not existing without saying that Jedi are X-men. In my opinion I believe that Midi's defeat what SW is about. In Episode IV, when Luke was in the trenches he was using the targeting device, and Ben's voice said "Let Go". He turned off the machine and used his instinct by faith. Faith in one's ability is a constant theme in SW. By entering Midi's it turns the film into Faith in Parasites.

Just to quickly address one of those statements which is obviously directed at me, I'm not a "know it all" and it hurts to be perceived as such. What I do is examine what is actually there. It's not my fault that there are incongrueties. Sure, we could all bury our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is hunky dory, but where's the fun in that? ;)

Anyhow, for me it's not a question of whether Midi's exist in the Saga or not. Obviously they do. They show up in Episode I. The question is why are they there in the first place? As noted numerous times, they weren't mentioned in the OT and more importantly (as said by both camps), weren't necessary. A generation grew up believing, just as Jaff and myself, in a human (Luke) who merely used this mysterious Force to achieve great things. It was a spiritual journey...not a technical achievement.

For a variety of reasons, it's clear to me that George merely inserted Midi's into the story as a tangible device to quickly and clumsily show that Anakin had Force potential. Nothing more. Nothing less. Why? Who knows. Maybe he doubted the ability of kids to pick up on more subtle ways of showing this so he felt the need to bash us all over the head. Maybe he was too lazy to figure out a better way to achieve this. Or maybe he was too egotistical to hire the WGA writer who he had actually asked (but then refused to pay the Guild fees to).

But regardless, it's painfully obvious that Midi's didn't even exist until sometime after the OT was completed which means that as an element in the Saga, any attempts by any of us (George included) to rectify the new additions from the Prequels with the story as told in the current OT are nothing more than rationalizations, at least until George reedits the OT for DVD release. Any new addition (if it's a problem) can certainly be "reasoned" enough to make it fit either by flatly ignoring any problems or by concocting elaborate excuses to justify them. And I think that this is the major point of contention between fans like myself, who would rather see it all just work out, and others who don't mind coming up with the band-aids and say things like "just enjoy it for what it is."

Jaff

08-26-2003, 11:25 PM

Posted by stillakid

Just to quickly address one of those statements which is obviously directed at me, I'm not a "know it all" and it hurts to be perceived as such. What I do is examine what is actually there. It's not my fault that there are incongrueties. Sure, we could all bury our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is hunky dory, but where's the fun in that?

I can't respond to this as I had never intended to target you stillakid! I'm just gonna ignore this paragraph like I stubornly ignore Midiclorine monsters!

Posted by Stillakid

Anyhow, for me it's not a question of whether Midi's exist in the Saga or not. Obviously they do. They show up in Episode I. The question is why are they there in the first place? As noted numerous times, they weren't mentioned in the OT and more importantly (as said by both camps), weren't necessary. A generation grew up believing, just as Jaff and myself, in a human (Luke) who merely used this mysterious Force to achieve great things. It was a spiritual journey...not a technical achievement.

O.K., O.K., they do exist, your point is on target, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. You are exactly right that I saw SW as a spiritial journey, and now the concept of the force has lost ALLOT of magic. I think in response to your question as to why midi's are in the film is because now days 90% of american audiences do not have a fraction of immagination to even concieve the spirituality of the force, so he adjusted the the concept to please the masses, and unknowling betrayed those who valued the spiritual concepts of SW.

Posted by Stillakid

For a variety of reasons, it's clear to me that George merely inserted Midi's into the story as a tangible device to quickly and clumsily show that Anakin had Force potential. Nothing more. Nothing less. Why? Who knows. Maybe he doubted the ability of kids to pick up on more subtle ways of showing this so he felt the need to bash us all over the head. Maybe he was too lazy to figure out a better way to achieve this. Or maybe he was too egotistical to hire the WGA writer who he had actually asked (but then refused to pay the Guild fees to).

Amen to this entire point.

Posted by Stillakid

But regardless, it's painfully obvious that Midi's didn't even exist until sometime after the OT was completed which means that as an element in the Saga, any attempts by any of us (George included) to rectify the new additions from the Prequels with the story as told in the current OT are nothing more than rationalizations, at least until George reedits the OT for DVD release. Any new addition (if it's a problem) can certainly be "reasoned" enough to make it fit either by flatly ignoring any problems or by concocting elaborate excuses to justify them. And I think that this is the major point of contention between fans like myself, who would rather see it all just work out, and others who don't mind coming up with the band-aids and say things like "just enjoy it for what it is."

Well I am one of those just enjoy it for what it is types but everytime I hear the midi chlorian things in the film it deffinately takes something away from the films. Here's why I challenged anyone to strongly debate for midi's in hopes that I can actually tolerate the scenes where they are mentioned. Is there anyone out there who actually likes the midi concept, and who can make sense of it so that I can watch the films thinking that jedi are special folks who are not only the way they are because of parasites talking to them. I hate whincing in Episode I because I really liked that episode!

TheDarthVader

08-26-2003, 11:55 PM

But the bigger problem with Midi's is that now, instead of Luke Skywalker being "one of us," a normal human being, someone we can empathize with, he is instead a superhuman with superpowers and potential that normal audience members could never relate to.

Maybe true...but nothing can change this. Um.....don't be a Star Wars fan anymore? I don't know. Midi's are a fact and can not be undone. It is finished...it is over. Can't we move on? Or shall we fuss and groble about it? Let's send Lucas hate mail!! That will help.

I have learned to accept things I can not change about Star Wars. It is not really our story...it is Lucas' story...it all came from his brain.

DarthChuckMc

08-27-2003, 12:21 AM

I found this theory over at TheForce.net:

Life creates the Force and makes it grow, beginning at the cellular level. The Force, in return, lends its power to either the generation of bodies or the modifying of organelles within the cell that will channel its energies and adapt the cell to the Force it is creating. These bodies are the midi-chlorians. Midi-chlorians are a living, vital part of the cell and also a living part of the Force... they do not create the Force, but they do connect all life to the Force. Wherever life is, Force is created. Where the Force is created, it uses midi-chlorians to establish itself within the cell as the most basic manifestation of the Force on the physical plane. Where the Force is within a cell (meaning all cells), there will be midi-chlorians. They are "cells" of the Force within life, just as all life resides within the Force in a symbiont circle.

The greater the amount of Force is being generated by an organism, the higher the amount of midi-chlorians per cell within that organism. Strength in the Force is a dominant trait that is passed on from parent to offspring. It is NOT passed down by inheriting the midi-chlorians! Instead, as strength is inherited, so too will go the production of midi-chlorians in proportion to strength in the Force.

The greater the amount of midi-chlorians, the more potential exists within a person to use the Force. A greater amount of midi-chlorians allows for a greater "sense" of the Force, whether the person is intimately aware of the Force or not. This greater exposure puts the person more "in tune" with the flow of the Force, its guidance and its delivering a person to destinations and situations according to its "will" (whether the Force is actually a sentient being as much as anyone else is not discussed in this theory).

A person can gain strength in the Force by training and dedication to the Force. As strength increases, midi-chlorian levels would logically increase. A person can NOT become stronger in the Force by transferring midi-chlorian rich blood or other tissue from another person. However, a clone of a person with the genetic tendency towards Force-ability would have the same midi-chlorian levels. They would still require learning the disciplines of the Force to make effective use of it, however.

In seeking the Force, a person can choose to abide by its flow or to work against it. Working with the Force means using it to help others grow, leading for growth in the Force as well. To work against the Force means to take from it without recompense, for selfish and evil gain.

stillakid

08-27-2003, 09:55 AM

Jaff

08-27-2003, 08:18 PM

Darthchuck thanks for that information, midi"sense" is now a little more clear to me, and with that said, I'm going to watch the films again with this new point of view. As I watch them I'm hoping I can take the midi issue with more enjoyment

And not to be mean to anyone, this thread is about midi's, and it is a debate. I think the converse should go on whether it sounds hateful or not so that we can better explore this topic.

stillakid

08-28-2003, 12:30 AM

Ok, after a day of thought about this it is clear that that explanation is bunk when applied to the events in Episode I.

Why you ask?

What we know from TPM:

A. Anakin has oodles of Midichlorians
B. Anakin is NOT trained to use The Force

What we can discern between the lines from TPM:

A. Aside from the occasional and INADVERTENT use of The Force by Anakin (presumably during his occasional podrace and from the occasional episode of fortunetelling as described by Schmi), Anakin does not really use the Force at all.

What does all this mean when coupled with the above detailed definition of Midichlorians? The definition explains quite clearly that Midichlorians result from regular and sustained "use" of The Force. Meaning, moderate to semi-heavy use, as a Jedi-in-training might utilize, would result in a "normal" amount of Midichlorians in the system. However, we were told that Anakin had a record amount of Midichlorians in his system which would imply that he was a heavy user of The Force. We KNOW that Anakin does NOT fit the definition of a regular or trained user at the time of the infamous Midi-measurement by poor Obi Wan (stuck in the ship). So the question arises: if Anakin does not really use The Force often in the manner described as being necessary for Midichlorian replication, then where did he get so many of them? Once again, the after-market rationalization falls short of explaining away an incongruity in the film. sigh.

DarthChuckMc

08-28-2003, 01:48 AM

I'm trying to come up with a reasonable explanation, but I'm high on codine right now, so I'll try and make this semi-intelligent.

GL used many sources when creating the SW stories. Everything from Jesus Christ, to King Arthur, to The Hero's Journey, yadda yadda yadda. Stuff that most of us have probably heard of, and can relate to.

My take is, like Jesus, Anakin was created by a Higher Power, in this case, Midichlorians. In Christianity, it is believed that GOD lives in all of us, in everything, much the way that Yoda describes the Force, in TESB.

My theory is that Midichlorians represent GOD, and like GOD, the midichlorians saw that things in the universe just weren't going so well. So, the midichlorians, out of necessity, created Anakin, so that he could come and set the universe back in line, much like Jesus was sent to take away everyone's sins, and make the world an all around better place.

Now, according to that theory (the one I posted last night), you gain more midichlorians by using the Force more often, but, it doesn't say that your midichlorian count deminishes if you DON'T use the Force, you just won't get any stronger in the Force. Anakin, being created by the Force, had an alarmingly HIGH count of midi's from birth. Once he was taken into the Jedi Order, and started learning how to use the Force properly, and by quieting his mind like Qui-Gon told him, then his count started to increase, making him that much more powerful.

Also, by that first theory, everyone has Midi's, some are born with higher counts than others. The Jedi, as seen in Ep 4, 5, & 6, can sense when another person strong in the Force is around. In the PT era, they used the meter, to test children that "felt" strong in the Force, to gauge the amount of Midi's in their system. If the count was high, they were candidates to become Jedi, because the higher count, would make it easier for them to "get in touch" with the Force, and therefore easier to train to become a Jedi.

The problem some may be having with the theory is, you can't relate it 100% to "real world" facts. We can't test people, to see how much of the "holy spirit" they have in them. Sure, people can claim to have it, but there is no scientific way to prove or disprove it.

In the Star Wars universe, they've figured out a way to scientificly to do just that, by measuring the midi count.

Of course, they've also figured out Hyperspace, artificial gravity, shooting laser bolts from a pistol, have a plasma cutter able to sear through flesh, bone, and steel, without disinigrating the person holding the handle without a firesuit and kevlar mittens.....

There are plenty of science fiction "things" in Star Wars, this is just one that GL decided to explain. For some, it ruined the mystique, I can understand....from the age of 5, I thought the Force was just SW's way of explaining GOD. Now that I'm an adult (still debatable), it makes more sense based on the science.

I hope that wasn't too much of a rambling mess.

These codine make me feel great, but the thought train is having a hard time leaving the station if you get my meaning.

Peace homies.

JediTricks

08-28-2003, 02:56 AM

Unless Ep 3 actively contradicts me on this one, I'm still going to believe that Qui-Gon has it all wrong about what the midis are and what they do (nobody else in the film actually backs up his claims about the Living Force or what the midis do), midiclorians are merely a byproduct of being able to use the Force rather than a conduit to it - having more of them in your blood count is akin to the number of white bloodcells in your blood count be a sign of having a disease.

So far, nobody in AOTC gave Qui-Gon's theory about the midis 1 fraction of a second's worth of screentime and in TPM everybody else just considers the midis to be a good counting tool on Force-use.

2-1B

08-28-2003, 03:34 AM

Anakin never had it explained to him. Just a quick blood sample, he went for a nap and Qui-Gon talked to Ben about it. So, does Anakin know about them? No one explained what they do or how they work.

Ummmmm, actually he did have it explained to him. :D Remember that scene of Anakin asking Qui-Gon "I heard Master Yoda talking about midichlorians. I was wondering, what are midichlorians?" ??? And then Qui-Gon went on to explain to him what midis were? :crazed:

I'll be coming back to this scene from TPM in a moment . . .

But the bigger problem with Midi's is that now, instead of Luke Skywalker being "one of us," a normal human being, someone we can empathize with, he is instead a superhuman with superpowers and potential that normal audience members could never relate to. In the 1977 version of Star Wars, Luke was just a naive farmboy who gets caught up in events much bigger than he ever could have dreamed of. Through his own strength and perserverence, he overcomes the greatest challenges in the galaxy. But now, with Midi's in the mix, he's got a leg up already and is predisposed to success. The insurmountable challenge from 1977 is reduced to a minor obstacle that Luke obviously can easily survive. The boy is a superhero, of course he'll win. But before, pre-Midi's, it wasn't necessarily a foregone conclusion.

Whoa, once again you choose to omit the OT "onscreen evidence" of Luke's specialness. ;)
ESB and ROTJ already showed that Luke had "a leg up" 19 and 16 years, respectively, before the midis were introduced on screen.
No matter how much you hate the midichlorians, it still remains that Luke and Leia had SOME kind of inherited ability. Of course, ANH was shot without any guarantees that another 2 or 5 movies would follow - so there was no definite plan that Vader would even be Luke's father.

With that in mind, are we to dismiss ESB and ROTJ as being flawed because they contradicted the image put forth about Luke in the first film? :confused:

I think it is perfectly plausible for one to accept the presence of midis without having to rationalize it. I was thinking some more about the question of why Luke was never brought up to speed on the midis and I have to say, stillakid, that I don't agree with the argument that it would have made perfect sense to tell Luke about them.

Anakin was told about them at age 9 and when we see him 10 years later, he is CERTAINLY not ready to be a full Jedi yet. He's way more powerful than Luke was of course, but that is due to the fact that he has had 10 years of training with Obi-Wan while being surrounded by thousands of other Jedi who practiced that 'religion.'

Knowing and doing are two different things. Being told about the midis definitely did not speed up Anakin's training. Not one bit. He had to learn to use his powers and he had to develop them.
Obi-Wan was on Ani's case for not taking care of his lightsaber, for rushing into a situation (Coruscant nightclub and especially the battle with Dooku). Anakin's knowledge of the biological nature of the Force doesn't appear to put him on a fast track to Jedi Knighthood so I don't know HOW Luke could benefit from that. :)

TheDarthVader

08-28-2003, 02:34 PM

Great points, Caesar! I agree with you 100%.

DarthChuckMc--I was thinking about posting regarding a "creator, or God" to help explain but I wished not to risk banishment from the forums(religous??). Thanks for doing it for those that didn't have the guts.

stillakid

08-28-2003, 11:15 PM

Also, by that first theory, everyone has Midi's, some are born with higher counts than others.

I subscribe to the real world belief (theory) that we are all made of tiny strings of energy (String Theory). If true, this fundamental building block of EVERYTHING would go a long way in explaining a wide variety of occurances, including the crazy things like ESP or apparitions. So, in terms of what you're saying about "god", I more or less agree. And more than that, it's exactly what Yoda was talking about in the beautiful sequence written by Lawrence Kasdan so many years ago.

However (ever notice how there is always a "however" with me ;) ), you suggest that Anakin was conceived with a higher amount of Midichlorians than others. Okay, back to biology class. Where were they hanging out? We know that they are supposed to be symbiotic creatures who (by your own definition) are sentient beings. We also know that they are passed on through the sperm (through the male bloodline) because of the way Luke and Leia claim to "have" the power (no, Caesar, I wasn't forgetting that...it still doesn't allow for the Midi concept to make any sense still). Being that a sperm is a single celled entity, where was this extra truckload of Midichlorians hanging out? Were they clinging on for dear life as the sperm rocketed into Schmi's egg? Oh, but wait! It was an Immaculate Conception! Fine, so the Midi's themselves, using some magic powers they have, fertilized one of Schmi's eggs and supersaturated the egg that was to become lil' Ani.

Okay, so now we've got a male who is chock full o' Midichlorians. Now he hooks up with the beautiful Padme and sends a package down the pipe. Now we're back to the same problem as described above. How did a truckload of Midi's overload the eggs that were to become Luke and Leia? It HAS to happen at the moment of conception because this is a trait passed on through the males, we're told (by the OT).

:confused:

2-1B

08-29-2003, 12:06 AM

I've discussed this "sperm theory" :D before and I'll glady do it again. :)

The key words are "highest CONCENTRATION of midiclorians" in a lifeform . . . if the child was conceived via one single sperm, then that sperm had a higher CONCENTRATION of midichlorians . . . so when the cells replicate, the midichlorians do as well - and keep the same CONCENTRATION or RATIO.

The sperm which conceived Anakin could have had 100 times more the midichlorian concentration than the sperm which conceived Han Solo. Both men have midichlorians in them, it's just that one has a higher CONCENTARTION than the other. :crazed:

So when stillakid asks "where was this extra truckload of Midichlorians hanging out?" I have to answer that they were there all along - in terms of concentration.

When people ask why Vader didn't lose force ability with the loss of his limbs (because afterall, he lost some midichlorians in those limbs) -- it doesn't matter because his midichlorian CONCENTRATION remained the EXACT SAME.

Yet as stillakid points out, Anakin's was a miraculous conception.
(by the way, the Immaculate Conception refers to the belief in the actual conception of Mary herself without Original Sin and NOT Jesus' virgin conception :) )

So obviously the sperm thing doesn't apply directly to Anakin's birth but I don't see how it matters. Shmi herself has midichlorians too, so when "The Prophecy" or whatever :rolleyes: starts to play out, Anakin is conceived by the midichlorians (if Qui-Gon is right) so to me it makes sense that they would reproduce in a higher concentration to create "The Chosen One." For me, ultimately this part is left up to the "magical and religious realm" just as the Jesus story in our own world . . . :confused:
It doesn't seem possible (even by the physics of the Star Wars world) yet it STILL happened -as some people believe.

I'm not sure where in the OT it is said that the heredity is strictly on the male side? :confused:
As for how Luke and Leia could be so blessed, the same goes as I said earlier - Anakin has a high CONCENTRATION of midis (even higher than Yoda ;) ) so it stands that his single cell sperm have that SAME concentration - when that sperm hooks up with Padme's egg, who knows, maybe the concentration of Luke and Leia's midis is diminished since Padme does not have nearly the same concentration as Ani? :confused:

Even if that's true, the twins will STILL have a high-above-average concentration of midichlorians.

Vader is the only Jedi in the OT, heck the whole Saga so far, to have kids - so it's only one example. I don't think that proves that it's hereditary on the male's side.

Finally, none of this explains why Obi-Wan had enough of a midichlorian concentration to be taken by the Jedi as a child . . . while his own parents were apparently not Jedi themselves? How did the Jedi miss out on Ben's parents? If Ben has a high midi count, wouldn't his parents as well (if in fact it can be hereditary) ? :confused: I dunno, maybe he didn't even have "normal" parents. Maybe his dad WAS a Jedi who just had a one night stand? :D

Who the hell knows, they never went into the family backstory of any of the other Jedi except for Ani . . . :crazed:

Kidhuman

08-29-2003, 08:26 AM

I guess it would depend on where and when Ben was born. If his parents lived on some faroff planet, outer rim perhaps and then moved closer after he was born. It doesnt explain anything really because all the Jedi's parents were missed.

gtrain29

09-03-2003, 04:06 AM

Wow, this is the 1st time I've checked in on my thread!
Great posts by all. It seems the 2 categories are those who are willing to grudgingly accept the midis & those who can't stand them. Does anyone actually like the existence of midis??

How about if in the archive editions E1 is altered so that qui-gon whispers to anakin about midis and none of us hear what he's saying?

Because after thinking it over, the first mention where they are just used as a counter isn't so bad -- they just needed to "amaze" obi-wan about how strong ani was with the force. I doubt I would have ever thought about them again after that scene. The later explanation by qui-gon is unnecessary as it adds nothing and only takes away from the story IMO.

JediTricks

09-03-2003, 05:24 AM

First off, they'd need to fix that awful reading of Jake's: "I heard master Yoda talking about Midichlorians. What are Midichlorians?" Sounds like he's the shill in a Ron Popiel infomercial... "I heard Master Windu talking about 'Hair in a Can' the other day. What is hair in a can, Ron?"

"Well, I'm glad you asked, Ani. You see, Hair in a Can uses thousands of magical little midichlorians in each can to simulate the look of real hair while also stimulating regrowth of dead hair folicles. Simply spray Hair in a Can onto your head and voila!, an instant hairdo guaranteed to look real, luscious, and totally natural; in fact, I'm using it right now!"

"Gee, Ron, I can't even tell! Wizard! But how much does a miracle product like this cost? I probably could never afford an amazing item like this, if I ever went bald I'd cover my face with a mask and helmet."

"'Wizard' indeed, Ani. This is the product that men have been waiting for since time began. And this wonderful little can not only lasts you a whole month, but also only costs mere credits a day!"

"Yippee!"Anyway, to "fix" this part of TPM in the SE, I think QGJ could say something like "Midichlorians are an organic marker that exist within your blood - the more concentrated they are, the more ability you have with the Force." This of course is vague enough to cover the original concept shown in the film while simultaneously leaving a much larger door open for a broader interpretation such as mine.

stillakid

09-03-2003, 10:56 AM

First off, they'd need to fix that awful reading of Jake's: "I heard master Yoda talking about Midichlorians. What are Midichlorians?" Sounds like he's the shill in a Ron Popiel infomercial... Anyway, to "fix" this part of TPM in the SE, I think QGJ could say something like "Midichlorians are an organic marker that exist within your blood - the more concentrated they are, the more ability you have with the Force." This of course is vague enough to cover the original concept shown in the film while simultaneously leaving a much larger door open for a broader interpretation such as mine.

Holy balls, I'm still laughing! LOL :D

stillakid

09-03-2003, 11:14 AM

I've discussed this "sperm theory" :D before and I'll glady do it again. :)

The key words are "highest CONCENTRATION of midiclorians" in a lifeform . . . if the child was conceived via one single sperm, then that sperm had a higher CONCENTRATION of midichlorians . . . so when the cells replicate, the midichlorians do as well - and keep the same CONCENTRATION or RATIO.

Right, but the problem lies in the definition of Midichlorians being symbiotic lifeforms of their own. The sperm cell is just that, a cell. For the Midichlorians to "get in there" in the first place, means that they would A) either have to be constructed of a smaller element than a a traditional cell, or B) somehow be engrained with the DNA strand and or the chromosomes that combine to create an embryo, which again means that they are not a separate organism at all.

I'm not a biologist nor do I play one on tv so anyone who is can pipe in here, but the way I understand this is that in the Star Wars lore, "Force ability" is somehow hereditary (ROTJ) and is measured by Midichlorians (TPM). This implies that if one or both of the parents has a large concentration of Midichlorians running rampant in their adult bodies, that somehow the "trait" is passed on to the offspring.

We KNOW that Luke and Leia got this from their father...at least that part is heavily implied. Which means that any other extraneous sources of Midichlorians (ie, through Padme's breast milk, etc) are out. So unless Anakin stood over his children's mouths and spit Midichlorian laden expectorate into them (and we know he didn't because presumably he doesn't even learn he has Luke until between Episodes IV and V and he doesn't learn about Leia until Episode VI), the only avenue for transferral of Midichlorians or the trait from Anakin to his children would have been through his sperm cell.

Which leads us back to the problem of where all these Midichlorians came from. Are they in that one cell? Are they hanging on for dear life as the little guy swims upstream? This is a question for a biologist to answer. Is it possible for some kind of advanced cellular (and sentient) organism to be small enough to fit inside a single sperm cell? And if we're talking about "concentration," then it suggests that a single sperm cell in a newborn Jedi-to-be would have a multitude of these things inside of it.

I don't get it? :confused:

darthvyn

09-03-2003, 01:01 PM

Right, but the problem lies in the definition of Midichlorians being symbiotic lifeforms of their own. The sperm cell is just that, a cell. For the Midichlorians to "get in there" in the first place, means that they would A) either have to be constructed of a smaller element than a a traditional cell, or B) somehow be engrained with the DNA strand and or the chromosomes that combine to create an embryo, which again means that they are not a separate organism at all.

I'm not a biologist nor do I play one on tv so anyone who is can pipe in here, but the way I understand this is that in the Star Wars lore, "Force ability" is somehow hereditary (ROTJ) and is measured by Midichlorians (TPM). This implies that if one or both of the parents has a large concentration of Midichlorians running rampant in their adult bodies, that somehow the "trait" is passed on to the offspring.

We KNOW that Luke and Leia got this from their father...at least that part is heavily implied. Which means that any other extraneous sources of Midichlorians (ie, through Padme's breast milk, etc) are out. So unless Anakin stood over his children's mouths and spit Midichlorian laden expectorate into them (and we know he didn't because presumably he doesn't even learn he has Luke until between Episodes IV and V and he doesn't learn about Leia until Episode VI), the only avenue for transferral of Midichlorians or the trait from Anakin to his children would have been through his sperm cell.

Which leads us back to the problem of where all these Midichlorians came from. Are they in that one cell? Are they hanging on for dear life as the little guy swims upstream? This is a question for a biologist to answer. Is it possible for some kind of advanced cellular (and sentient) organism to be small enough to fit inside a single sperm cell? And if we're talking about "concentration," then it suggests that a single sperm cell in a newborn Jedi-to-be would have a multitude of these things inside of it.

I don't get it? :confused:

there are plenty of parts to a cell... they are all smaller than the cell. midichlorians, as i've said before, sound like a composite word of mitochondria - the energy producing vessesl in animal cells, and chloroplasts - the energy producing vessels in plant cells.

i found a website on mitochondria...

from http://cellbio.utmb.edu/cellbio/mitoch1.htm

"Mitochondria replicate much like bacterial cells. When they get too large, they undergo fission. This involves a furrowing of the inner and then the outer membrane as if someone was pinching the mitochondrion. Then the two daughter mitochondria split. Of course, the mitochondria must first replicate their DNA."

so, whether the sperm was chock full of midicholorians, or just one, there could then be a splitting of them until they get to a number that shows how force sensitive the individual is...

now, i know mitochondria are a part of us, but they have their own dna and the ability to replicate... sounds like a separate organism to me... i've said before as well, all we are are amalgams of differentiated tissue, all with their own jobs to do, living in symbiosis.

from http://cellbio.utmb.edu/cellbio/mitochondria_1.htm#powerhouses

"How are mitochondria organized to be powerhouses?

The food we eat is oxidized to produce high-energy electrons that are converted to stored energy. This energy is stored in high energy phosphate bonds in a molecule called adenosine triphosphate, or ATP. ATP is converted from adenosine diphosphate by adding the phosphate group with the high-energy bond. Various reactions in the cell can either use energy (whereby the ATP is converted back to ADP, releasing the high energy bond) or produce it (whereby the ATP is produced from ADP)."

so, the more mitochondria we have... the more ENERGY we have...

once again, i've said it before, but i love things that bring together science and spirituality... too long they have been separate, almost opposite, ideas. that's why i'm not bothered by the midichlorians. they are the embodiment of science and spirituality combined...

i found my old post about this...

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=122697&postcount=11

just fyi...

stillakid

09-03-2003, 05:06 PM

there are plenty of parts to a cell... they are all smaller than the cell. midichlorians, as i've said before, sound like a composite word of mitochondria - the energy producing vessesl in animal cells, and chloroplasts - the energy producing vessels in plant cells.

i found a website on mitochondria...

from http://cellbio.utmb.edu/cellbio/mitoch1.htm

"Mitochondria replicate much like bacterial cells. When they get too large, they undergo fission. This involves a furrowing of the inner and then the outer membrane as if someone was pinching the mitochondrion. Then the two daughter mitochondria split. Of course, the mitochondria must first replicate their DNA."

so, whether the sperm was chock full of midicholorians, or just one, there could then be a splitting of them until they get to a number that shows how force sensitive the individual is...

now, i know mitochondria are a part of us, but they have their own dna and the ability to replicate... sounds like a separate organism to me... i've said before as well, all we are are amalgams of differentiated tissue, all with their own jobs to do, living in symbiosis.

from http://cellbio.utmb.edu/cellbio/mitochondria_1.htm#powerhouses

"How are mitochondria organized to be powerhouses?

The food we eat is oxidized to produce high-energy electrons that are converted to stored energy. This energy is stored in high energy phosphate bonds in a molecule called adenosine triphosphate, or ATP. ATP is converted from adenosine diphosphate by adding the phosphate group with the high-energy bond. Various reactions in the cell can either use energy (whereby the ATP is converted back to ADP, releasing the high energy bond) or produce it (whereby the ATP is produced from ADP)."

so, the more mitochondria we have... the more ENERGY we have...

once again, i've said it before, but i love things that bring together science and spirituality... too long they have been separate, almost opposite, ideas. that's why i'm not bothered by the midichlorians. they are the embodiment of science and spirituality combined...

i found my old post about this...

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=122697&postcount=11

just fyi...

Very nice. Thank you, Darthvyn. I shall ponder all of this. Until then... :)

gtrain29

09-04-2003, 12:39 PM

Here is the big problem with the midis. We keep delving deeper and deeper into cell biology and theoretical physics about something that was originally just a "mystical energy field."

darthvyn

09-04-2003, 03:02 PM

Here is the big problem with the midis. We keep delving deeper and deeper into cell biology and theoretical physics about something that was originally just a "mystical energy field."

yeah, but energy is both mystical AND scientific. it is quantifiable, yet we still don't know where it comes from, or really what it is. we understand that there is a correlation between mass and energy, but exactly what that correlation is we don't know.

true, the cell biology is new due to the introduction of midis, but do you really think theoretical physics is a new topic to star wars? with the mere first mention of "the force" as an energy in the universe i'm sure there were discussions of not only a spiritual nature, but a scientific one as well. it's an energy field that surrounds us, binds us, flows through us. unified field theory?

but, like i said. i love bringing science and spirituality together, anyway, so i guess that's why i'm not bothered by it...

stillakid

09-04-2003, 03:39 PM

Here is the big problem with the midis. We keep delving deeper and deeper into cell biology and theoretical physics about something that was originally just a "mystical energy field."

Assuming that Midi's exist (and they do because they are in the film), George is just using them as a way to quantify someone's Force manipulation potential.

I personally (currently) like String Theory, which essentially boils down to the idea that the most basic element of everything is a tiny little "string" of pure energy.

Because everything is constructed of the same stuff (even the air that exists between things), it stands to reason that everything is actually physically connected, albeit, at the most fundamental level of existence possible.

What Star Wars attempts to do, is build a bridge wherein sentient beings actually figure out a way to "tap into" and "use" this connection between everything so that they can do stuff like pick up chicks with wacky parlor tricks. It was all very elegantly described by Yoda (by Lawrence Kasdan) in The Empire Strikes Back.

The Phantom Menace brought us the definition of that "bridge," which not only suggests that some people have more potential than others, but seriously implies that this "bridge" is also a sentient entity unto itself which has the capacity for decision making. "God," if you will, as they apparently have the ability to generate life where there was none.

Fine, fine, I say. But just because George was too lazy to figure out a better way to show the audience that Anakin was gifted, was it really necessary to belabor the saga with this kind of overly complicated (and suspicious) nonsense?

gtrain29

09-08-2003, 07:20 PM

Okay, let's say midis are like mitochondria which, by the way, were were believed to have evolved from tinier bacteria being "symbiotic" inside another bacteria.
So their really not symbiotic at this point, but probably more like organelles which replicate every time a cell does and so could end up in a sperm or egg and pass on to the offspring.
This makes sense but leads to lots of problems. One would conclude from the above info that being a jedi is an inherited trait. However, jedi are forbidden to love and marry. Soooo, where are all these jedi coming from??? Did the republic somehow miss all the force-sensitive people from whom these jedi came, OR do the jedi go around and hookup with partners every now & then when the urge overtakes them. Since the child will be taken from the parents and raised at the temple, a jedi needn't worry about child support.??????
Also, I don't see any possible way for a midi, organelle or symbiot, to produce a sperm cell somehow with human dna and get it into shmi's womb at the exact time to fertilize and egg. Several impossibilities exist there. Any explanations????

And FINALLY, so say we all agree that high concentrations of these creatures give us the potential to be more powerful jedi. HOW IN THE HELL do midis actually work to make us hear or feel the force??!!!! Since we must be scientific here and accept that these organelles are inside cells, then there must be a scientific explanation for how they work to give the jedi his/her power. Are they like little satellite dishes that catch the signal the force is projecting around the galaxy with little force receptors on their membranes? If so, then what? How do they send the force signal to the brain? Do the midis secrete some unique neurotransmitter that gets exocytosed from the cell, hits a synapse, and travels the nerves up to the brain??? If that somehow happens, then what's next? See, all this does is allows a jedi to feel the presence of the force. It doesn't account for the things we know the force is capable of: "controlling our actions, and obeying our commands," the super reflexes, speed, strength, telepathy, and visions. In other words, if any of these impossibilities were to occur to get that signal of the force to our brain, we still couldn't do anything superhuman about that knowledge.

Therefore, here are my conclusions: ONE, Han Solo was correct in his assertion that the jedi shtick is nothing more than a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
TWO: (this makes the most sense) Qui-Gon was just a crazy old wizard. His whole midi theory was just a denomination of the jedi ideology. This makes sense because Qui-gon is the only jedi who seems to believe in the midis. Nobody on the counsel even mentions them, and they seem to shrug off his notions about the conception of Ani. Obi-Wan talks about them because he is the apprentice of Qui-Gon, and we all know that he goes on to be another crazy old wizard. Obi never discusses them to his apprentice as far as we know, nor do any other jedi. In fact, Qui-Gon's lunacy might be part of the reason he is kept off the counsel. Maybe that is why they sent him after the Sith since he was expendable. Perhaps he was a scientist or alchemist in his spare time and discovered some correlation between these organelles and jedi, but nobody really understands how they work.

I grew up believing the force was just a mystical field that these jedi were able to control in some unexplainable fashion. Just like Gandalf and other wizards from other fantasies have unusual powers that we don't try to explain because WE DON'T CARE. Like everyone's said, it is the stories and ability to relate to the characters that are the true magic of star wars. So, I think it was stillakid who said this, but Lucas was simply throwing out a quick & easy explanation of force potential and just didn't think about the consequences or wasn't skillful enough to write it any better.

darthvyn

09-09-2003, 03:29 AM

there was a post in the other thread that i linked to up there that proposes what you say about qui-gon... that his idea of midis isn't what most jedi believe.

mitochondria replicate INSIDE the cell, not just when the cell divides. there can be multiple mitos in the cell. they store up and dish out energy for the cell to use. if someone has an abundance of energy, they have an abundance of mitos. therefore, i postulate that if a jedi has a large amount of the spiritual ENERGY of the force in them, this is quantified by the abundance of midis. the midis aren't actually the gateway to the force, but merely a storing depot for the energy of the force, and a good gauge of how much force energy a potential jedi has...

2-1B

09-09-2003, 04:25 AM

Well postulated, Vyn ! :)

The idea of midichlorians replicating inside the cell pretty much clears up my confusion as to why at least one of Obi-Wan's parents was not also a Jedi.

thanks. :)

2-1B

09-09-2003, 04:33 AM

So, I think it was stillakid who said this, but Lucas was simply throwing out a quick & easy explanation of force potential and just didn't think about the consequences or wasn't skillful enough to write it any better.

Ehhhhh, George can be a real hack sometimes but when it comes to the midis I'm inclined to give him more credit than this.
Lucas talked before about the similarities to mitochondria . . . I think he knew what he was talking about and why he was doing it. :)

stillakid

09-10-2003, 03:36 PM

Ehhhhh, George can be a real hack sometimes but when it comes to the midis I'm inclined to give him more credit than this.
Lucas talked before about the similarities to mitochondria . . . I think he knew what he was talking about and why he was doing it. :)

Anything is possible. As much as I dislike the idea in the saga, I do have genuine hope that he will surprise us all who don't believe. I suppose he has 4 more chances to prove your assertion correct: Episode III hopefully, but he could also shoehorn it in unnaturally into the super-nifty DVD editions of the three original trilogy films.

Got my fingers crossed. :D

gtrain29

09-10-2003, 04:28 PM

2-1B

09-10-2003, 04:48 PM

Anything is possible. As much as I dislike the idea in the saga, I do have genuine hope that he will surprise us all who don't believe. I suppose he has 4 more chances to prove your assertion correct: Episode III hopefully, but he could also shoehorn it in unnaturally into the super-nifty DVD editions of the three original trilogy films.

Got my fingers crossed. :D

LOL, "4 more chances" :D

Well stillakid, I said that from the POV of just TPM. Personally I think it's fine to just let it be contained in that one film. I don't expect the issue to be addressed even once in Episode 3.

But I see where you are coming from - you think George needs to deal with it again in this next film. We'll see. :)

stillakid

09-10-2003, 05:15 PM

LOL, "4 more chances" :D

Well stillakid, I said that from the POV of just TPM. Personally I think it's fine to just let it be contained in that one film. I don't expect the issue to be addressed even once in Episode 3.

But I see where you are coming from - you think George needs to deal with it again in this next film. We'll see. :)

Well, if nothing else, he might make the choice to include something in reaction to the general grumblings out there. If he leaves it alone (to be self-contained in TPM) then he runs the risk of having people believe forever that it was a mistake no matter what his real intention was. If he makes some kind of attempt to better explain its inclusion (not in a carnival pitchman sort of way, mind you), then at least we can look at it and say, "Oh, okay" or " :rolleyes: it's still dumb."

I still maintain that regardless of what he could/would/should say about them in Episode III, he absolutely has to insert them into the OT. It makes absolutely no sense in the world why two separate Jedi Masters, with the sole remaining hope for the galaxy, would neglect to share this kind of information with him. This isn't to say that I'd like the OT any better for it. In fact, it would rather disrupt the elegance of the description of what the Force was and how it was used as written originally. But the benefit would be to make the Prequels that much more palatable. Sort of liking bringing down the whole class so that the dumb kid doesn't stand out so much. :D

Beast

09-10-2003, 05:20 PM

I posted the link to this thesis before, that explores the issue of Midiclorians. I believe it's very well written and definatly gives you something to think about. I'll even pop in two of the more thought provoking areas at the end. :)

http://www.theforce.net/midichlorians/

Also note, I agree. There's no reason for them to mention the Midiclorians in the OT. Luke was already the chosen one. Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that the force was strong in him. Why muddle his poor farm boy head with talk of genetics. Qui-Gon probably wouldn't even have explained it to Anakin, if he hadn't have asked. :)

Just because someone has a higher number of Midi's, doesn't make them superman. They just have a stronger connection to the force. Without training, they still wouldn't be anything particularly special. And we see where Ani's extra Midi's leads him, getting his arse kicked by Dooku and Obi-Wan, who were better trained. :)
Midi-chlorians, as explained by the creator of Star Wars, George Lucas:

"Midi-chlorians are a loose depiction of mitochondria, which are necessary components for cells to divide. They probably had something--which will come out someday--to do with the beginnings of life and how one cell decided to become two cells with a little help from this other little creature who came in, without whom life couldn't exist. And it's really a way of saying we have hundreds of little creatures who live on us, and without them, we all would die. There wouldn't be any life. They are necessary for us; we are necessary for them. Using them in the metaphor, saying society is the same way, says we all must get along with each other."
It's more accurate to say that Anakin has the greatest potential in the Force of any person, instead of being strongest by a cosmic twist of fate, unless we want to believe that someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger was born built like Conan the Barbarian. Of course not, but Arnold does have a predisposition towards increased musculature that he took advantage of, but it didn't come without his effort to get to that point and then to maintain it. If he had never been introduced to weight-training, he would still have that potential but it would never have been harnessed. Likewise, if Anakin had not been found by Qui-Gon Jinn, there would have been no nurturing of his potential in the Jedi discipline. Anakin would have spent the rest of his life as a slave, whistfully looking at the twin suns and wondering what might have been.

Of course, we know better...

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

TheDarthVader

09-11-2003, 06:20 PM

Luke was already the chosen one.

I hate to bring up another arguement, but I get frustrated with individuals who believe that Luke was the chosen one. Anakin is the chosen one. Here is some dialogue from EP I that proves it.

Qui Gon- "It is possible he was conceived by midichlorians."

Mace- "You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force."

If the prophecy states that the chosen one is to be conceived by midichlorians then Anakin is 100% the chosen one. It can not be Luke...there is no way. He was not conceived by midis.

Sorry to start something different, but I had to! Good discussion so far on the midis, everyone! I am enjoying it! :)

JediTricks

09-12-2003, 04:21 AM

But how do we know Mace isn't referring to the vergence around Anakin? That's specifically what Qui-Gon first mentions about the lil squirt, not the conception.

stillakid

09-12-2003, 04:29 AM

But how do we know Mace isn't referring to the vergence around Anakin? That's specifically what Qui-Gon first mentions about the lil squirt, not the conception.

Well, first of all, what the hell is a "vergence" anyway? :rolleyes: This idea about bringing "balance" to the Force is entirely unexplained as well. In fact, this entire "prophecy" and the Midi's it rode in on falls flat onscreen. I'm sure that there are tomes of extraneous reading materials which need to be studied in order to defend the elements in the movies, but it sure would have been nice of the guy to bother writing a script which didn't leave so many people saying, "Huh?"

JediTricks

09-12-2003, 05:07 AM

I'm not validating the meaning of "the prophecy", I'm just saying that Mace could - and in my mind, most likely is - responding to QGJ's comment about the vergence.

Vergence: n.
1.A measure of the convergence or divergence of a pair of light rays, defined as the reciprocal of the distance between a point of reference and the point at which the rays intersect.
(there's a second, medical definition but it's about eyes :crazed: )

As to its definition in TPM though, no real clue beyond the relatively cryptic dialogue:

QUI-GON: I have encountered a vergence in the Force.

YODA: A vergence, you say?

MACE WINDU: Located around a person?

QUI-GON: A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of midi-chlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

MACE WINDU: You're referring to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy?? That tends to suggestion the vergence is found not specifically in but "around" things, and does not have to be a living being. Perhaps it means a Force hiccup. ;)

Beast

09-12-2003, 08:20 AM

I hate to bring up another arguement, but I get frustrated with individuals who believe that Luke was the chosen one.
Ok, let me make my comment more clear. I didn't mean to use the 'Chosen One' term, because I know that refers to Anakin. Let me use the term that the original Star Wars uses to refer to Luke...."A New Hope". Where as Anakin was "The Original "Hope". Basically I meant that Luke was already known to be strong in the force by Obi-Wan and Yoda, so no need to test him or bring up the issue of genetics with him.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid

09-12-2003, 11:26 AM

or bring up the issue of genetics with him.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I've never been talking about genetics or testing as it relates to Midichlorians. You're still missing the point.

Yes, I agree, there is no reason necessarily to test Luke (as long as there is a precendent for strong heredity of this sort of thing to go on....which, by the way, there doesn't appear to be lest every one of those 5000 Jedi in the galaxy also had Midi-rich parentage, but we've been given no reason to believe this to be true....hmm, another hole in the architecture?)

But beyond that, the reason why telling Luke about Midi's is so compelling is because, while this Force presumably has been proven to exist, apparently the only way to tap into it and use it is via this pathway of "listening to" these symbiotic parasites in your cells.

Look at it this way, if I asked you to get over to that island over there after covering your eyes, but neglected to tell you about the bridge that you didn't see, how long do you think it might take you to get there? Sure, through trial and error you could "trust your feelings" and other psuedo-psychological nonsense, but for cryin' out loud, there's work to do and you're running out of time to do it. I'd be a bit p.o.'d if you didn't bother telling me about that expanse which would have sped this process up and made it a whole lot easier. Plus, I wouldn't have gotten so frickin' wet. ;)

So, the same applies with Luke and the confounded Midi concept. Yeah, they suspected that he had the same potential as daddy, but the idea that "there was no need to tell him" falls entirely flat. What, like it takes about 10 to 20 seconds to spit this dialogue out? Check TPM and time how long it takes Ani to ask the question and then have it answered. Like Yoda or Ben couldn't have done that? Puleeasse.

Jedi Clint

09-12-2003, 03:35 PM

Beast

09-12-2003, 03:46 PM

Agreed, the explanation could have happened off screen. Just like we didn't see every second of training on screen. Not to mention Luke is never told how to construct a Lightsaber. Something that ever Jedi does when they become a certain level. Yet he knows somehow how to build one in ROTJ. Yet we're never shown where this knowledge comes from. Now if we go by EU sources, when Luke returned to Obi-Wan's Hut on Tattooine, he found instructions how to construct a new Lightsaber. Most likely Obi-Wan also had info about the Jedi teachings, training, and testing procedures in the same trunk. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

gtrain29

09-13-2003, 04:24 AM

Yes, I suppose someone could have explained it to Luke off-screen. It would certainly be important to let the last jedi know about the little bugs living in his cells that allowed him to use the force.
OR, Yoda & Ben had since realised the fallacy in that belief. I was reading elsewhere how Obi-Wan goes from a midi supporter to an older wiser more spiritual idea of the force at the end of his life. We'll always be wondering about this unless there is an answer in 3.

Also, there seem to be some satisfactory explanations of the things as force receptors, but there is no freakin' way that mitochondria spit out a human sperm cell that somehow worked its way into Shmi's womb at the exact moment necessary to fertilize an egg! There must be a father.

darthvyn

09-13-2003, 09:47 PM

I love that theory!!!
That makes good sense. Didn't Qui-Gon explain it incorrectly, then? I thought he tried to explain them as the gateway which doesn't make sense, but I agree with what you've postulated.

well, in the thread i linked to, JT actually brings up a theory that qui-gon is wrong about them on purpose, that he is a believer in the "living force" which was theorized to be the belief that the midis ARE the gateway, not just a force cell count... whereas other jedi believe they are of lesser significance...

I still maintain that regardless of what he could/would/should say about them in Episode III, he absolutely has to insert them into the OT. It makes absolutely no sense in the world why two separate Jedi Masters, with the sole remaining hope for the galaxy, would neglect to share this kind of information with him. This isn't to say that I'd like the OT any better for it. In fact, it would rather disrupt the elegance of the description of what the Force was and how it was used as written originally. But the benefit would be to make the Prequels that much more palatable. Sort of liking bringing down the whole class so that the dumb kid doesn't stand out so much. :D

with the theory above, it isn't necessary to talk of midis if qui-gon ends up being wrong about them - they have no bearing on luke's abilities, they are just a quantified measurement of force potential... if we find out that qui-gon was wrong about them in III, there is no need to infuse them into the OT.

stillakid

09-14-2003, 12:36 AM

Even if it were necessary to tell luke about midis (which I'm not going to argue), why would it be necessary to SHOW Yoda explaining them to him? He very well could have told him about them, but it was never shown to the audience. In episode order we already saw an explanation about the midis in the first one.

Well, I suppose technically, that's true. But if we're going to use that line of reasoning to defend an addition like that in the Prequels, then what was the point of going through the trouble of building suspense for the audience over the identity of Darth Vader in the OT then? Huh? Why the brief yet evident "mystery" over this Yoda character?

See, the problem is that while George may want to pretend that these are meant to be seen in Episode order, the fact remains that they aren't being made that way. He has already established the foundation of the plot and the point of the series with the first three films (IV, V, and VI). In doing that, he, with the considerable aid of three other writers, two other directors, and I forget how many actual producers, constructed sequences and scenes with the express purpose of creating drama and intrigue within themselves. By "giving away" certain information in the earlier episodes, much of that intentional drama and suspense will be removed.

In the same way, it doesn't make any sense at all for certain information, like Midi's, to be pointedly highlighted in one episode and rationalized away by playing a friendly game of "pretend" that they were mentioned "offscreen" in later chapters. I mean, for cryin' out loud, you could successfully use that "logic" for any movie that comes down the pike that is riddled with holes. "What? Oh, that? Yeah, uh, see the hero mentioned that offscreen." :rolleyes:

Where do you draw the line?

Jedi Clint

09-14-2003, 08:37 PM

Even if it were necessary to tell luke about midis (which I'm not going to argue), why would it be necessary to SHOW Yoda explaining them to him? He very well could have told him about them, but it was never shown to the audience. In episode order we already saw an explanation about the midis in the first one.

I'm glad we can agree that the above is "technically true". :)

TESB seems to have built a suprise for the audience for Yoda and Vader's identity. Once 3 is out, only the character of Luke will be suprised by either revelation. I don't like it, but I'll deal. But then I never applied the reasoning quoted above as justification for the way either of those situations will play out. :)

I'm sorry you feel my "logic" makes no "sense at all", but I'm plenty satisfied with the way I "rationalized away" the absence of a reiteration of the midis relationship to the force in a later episode. I see no reason why the audience needs a redundant explanation. In fact, presenting different aspects of the force in the dialogue between characters that involves the subject increases the breadth of the explanation (regardless of whether one likes or dislikes a portion of the gross illustration) Even if one believed it was necessary for Luke to understand midis, there's no reason why one should assume he did not get that instruction from Yoda (or Obi Wan for that matter) unless they assume that the characters only speak to one another when the audience witnesses it :rolleyes:

stillakid

09-14-2003, 11:26 PM

there's no reason why one should assume he did not get that instruction from Yoda (or Obi Wan for that matter) unless they assume that the characters only speak to one another when the audience witnesses it :rolleyes:

Your rolling eyes are key to that statement, which tells me that your experience with evaluating and/or writing fiction and screenplays is limited at best. Absolutely the audience shouldn't assume anything of the sort unless it is either directly shown or said onscreen or grossly implied. Otherwise, no, absolutely not, it did not happen. If there was ever a rulebook for screenwriting, that would definitely be a part of it.

So, despite the contention which states that we should just accept that this Midi stuff was a part of Luke's offscreen training, there is absolutely no basis for the basic audience to accept such a thing, beyond the need for die-hard fans to love every bit of the saga without question.

Specifically, I wonder what your reasoning is that Ben and Yoda didn't explain Midi's to Luke onscreen? Going on the assumption (which I doubt) that Midi's were part of the storyline all along, why would George omit their mention in the OT? What does he have to gain by doing such a thing? Why wait some 25 years to spill this oh so important piece of the puzzle in a "Ron Popiel" sort of way (thanks to JT for that one http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275973&postcount=37), only to drop the entire thing from public view throughout the rest of the 5 episodes? Clearly, I consider it crappy writing. That's no secret. I'm interested in hearing more of the "offscreen" explanation for why such a thing happened from defenders of the Lucas. :)

Jedi Clint

09-15-2003, 02:04 AM

Your rolling eyes are key to that statement, which tells me that your experience with evaluating and/or writing fiction and screenplays is limited at best.

Cool part is.......I don't really care what your guesstimation of my "experience with evaluating and/or writing fiction and screenplays" is. Should the "basic audience" have such experience before they watch a film?

Absolutely the audience shouldn't assume anything of the sort unless it is either directly shown or said onscreen or grossly implied.

I thought it was "grossly implied" that Yoda trained Luke during the time they spent together on Dagobah. I figured training him meant telling him everything he could to best perpare him for the challenges ahead. I also figured they spoke more words to one another during their time together than were witnessed "on-screen". Are those outrageous conclusions to draw?

Otherwise, no, absolutely not, it did not happen.

Or maybe it did! :D

In this case one can either assume that Yoda and or Obi Wan never spoke to Luke about the midis (or anything else for that matter) because we didn't see it happen, OR one can assume they did even though we didn't see it. Either way it doesn't bother me.

If there was ever a rulebook for screenwriting, that would definitely be a part of it.

So there is no "rulebook for screenwriting"? ;)

So, despite the contention which states that we should just accept that this Midi stuff was a part of Luke's offscreen training, there is absolutely no basis for the basic audience to accept such a thing, beyond the need for die-hard fans to love every bit of the saga without question.

Now I'm a "diehard fan" that "loves every bit of the saga without question"? I thought I just mentioned something that I didn't like about the saga. Aren't I addressing questions in the course of this discussion?

Specifically, I wonder what your reasoning is that Ben and Yoda didn't explain Midi's to Luke onscreen?

Sorry if you missed it.

Going on the assumption (which I doubt) that Midi's were part of the storyline all along, why would George omit their mention in the OT? What does he have to gain by doing such a thing?

I don't know whether they "were part of the storyline all along" or not. They are part of it now.

2-1B

09-15-2003, 02:28 AM

It's my interpretation that Luke was never clued in on the midichlorians and I maintain that there would be no need for him to be filled in by Yoda or Ben. I talked about this on page 3 of this thread (the idea that Anakin's training was not sped along by his knowledge of midichlorians so why would Luke's?) but then we got into the area of Force heredity so I never discussed it further. :)

TheDarthVader

09-15-2003, 01:20 PM

And my idea of the "off-screen" theory was already here. It was on page two of this thread. ;)

Just because midi's weren't in the OT doesn't mean they weren't in the OT...okay I know, you don't follow me. Here are some examples:

1. In ROTJ Luke has constructed a lightsaber. How did he know how to do that? I didn't see any part in the movie that showed us how he learned to make a lightsaber. :confused:
2. In ROTJ Luke proves to be a worthy lightsaber combatant versus Darth Vader. Wait!! I didn't see in the OT were Luke learned to combat so elegantly...? or practiced using a lightsaber against another lightsaber combatant. :confused:

Possibly Yoda did tell Luke about Midi's...we just didn't see it.

gtrain29

09-15-2003, 02:47 PM

Luke's use of a lightsaber was anything but elegant. It makes sense since he never really had a whole lot of training in that area, though.

I think it would be necessary to tell Luke about midis, though, because he is the last of the jedi. No, it may not have sped along his training, but in teaching the whole jedi thing, telling him about the little bugs that allow him to use the force would be a key concept. I think it would have helped him, though. I'd be much more confident if, instead of just trying to stretch out with my feelings, I knew beforehand that my cells were infested with creatures that enabled me to do this better than other people.
Yeah, it could have happened off screen, but, when watching a movie, the important things should happen onscreen.

The midi count was not needed in E1. "I'm the only human who can do it." and, "The force is unusually strong in him." were lines gave me chills about how powerful this kid could be. Then the midi count and explanation really took the magic out of the situation.
This is something that needs further explaining in E3, though. If Qui-gon was correct about them, then they make no sense at all. If his theory was wrong, then we need to find out or this debate will never end.

stillakid

09-15-2003, 04:23 PM

(the idea that Anakin's training was not sped along by his knowledge of midichlorians so why would Luke's?)

Yeah, that's an interesting idea, but what leads you to believe that Anakin's training wasn't enhanced by his knowledge of Midi's? See, he didn't begin his training until after learning about them, so naturally, he'll have that little nugget of info floating around in that noggin of his. Maybe it influenced the way he trained, maybe it didn't. But because he did know, it seems more likely that he was indeed aided by the knowledge. Impossible to tell one way or the other though, because a great deal of his formative Jedi years occur offscreen. All we know for certain is that he was trained (but we don't know how) and can use a lightsaber and float fruit through the air.

As far as Luke goes, we can safely say that the audience never heard anyone tell him about Midi's so, unless it happened offscreen (which is pure conjecture at this point), Luke had to train without that knowledge. Again, much of his training tends to occur offscreen, but one should assume that George would have wanted to include the most important bits so the audience would be privy to them as well. So, we were treated to Ben and Spirit Ben explaining how to use the Force while Yoda tended to spend more time explaining the why of it all. So, for certain, we never hear anyone tell Luke about Midi's so, as I've said before, there is no reason to assume that they did unless you feel compelled to fill George's holes for him.

In any case, the question that was posed was would this information (about Midi's) actually improve a Padawan's training or wouldn't it matter at all? I'm inclined to think that the more information the better, no matter what skill we're talking about, be it Jedi Training or house building. But some of you seem to differ on that. Hey, to each his own I guess. :) I'll be over to put that addition on your house next weekend. ;)

2-1B

09-16-2003, 02:38 AM

Yeah, that's an interesting idea, but what leads you to believe that Anakin's training wasn't enhanced by his knowledge of Midi's?

When I think about this topic, I see Anakin in AOTC after a 10 year offscreen training period. He is obviously skilled and very talented, a hotshot pilot and all of that . . . look specifically at the run he makes through the Droid Factory. I'm on record as hating that scene because of the Threepio nonsense :rolleyes: but I find the Anakin stuff to be pretty exciting. He tears through those Geo Warriors rather skillfully and he makes it through quite an obstacle course in itself. Fast forward to the Arena Battle and he's deflecting shots, running around, hopping on moving carts, etc. in an impressive showing.
When he goes up against a skilled opponent like Dooku, he gets his butt handed to him in short order.

Anakin's good at this point, VERY good. But not great.

Compare that to Luke in the time from ANH to ESB. A year or three later and Luke is already force pulling a lightsaber out of the snow and THEN he begins his training with Yoda. He moves some stuff around through the air, he does some physical conditioning, hell we don't even SEE him training with a lightsaber (what's that idea about seeing the important stuff onscreen? :rolleyes: ) and when he runs off to face Vader, clearly a skilled opponent like Dooku was (more so, actually), Luke also gets his butt kicked -- but he put up a better fight than his dad did against Dooku. Of course, Vader was not going for the kill or else Luke would have eventually died but I still can't take anything away from Luke's novice effort. :)

And let's go forward another 6 months or a year to ROTJ when Luke is a mega-fighter, making his way out of Jabba's Palace and tearing stuff up during that Skiff battle. That scene reminds me of Ani's run through the Droid Factory and I think it's a nice echo. :)

It seems to me that in approximately 4 years, Luke came close to or even surpassed the point his dad was at after TEN years. As far as I'm concerned, Luke never learned about midichlorians and he still did better than his pop who had this knowledge available to him. The midichlorians are not that essential to Jedi Training, their inclusion in TPM is simply there to show a biological foundation for the physics of this universe in which The Force has come to be seen as a "hokey religion of tricks and nonsense."

Anakin had raw talent but Luke had more heart. :)

stillakid

09-16-2003, 10:23 AM

Anakin had raw talent but Luke had more heart. :)

Agreed! And I think that it is with this exact point that my trouble with Midi's begins. The prior films had a foundation of, well, emotion I suppose. The newer editions tend to be very cold...calculated by comparison. While characters like Luke operated from real human feeling (Reach out), I don't understand why Lucas felt the need to dehumanize the accomplishments of those in his galaxy. Luke did overcome quite a bit in a rather short time with rather limited help. That was definitely worth recognition. And he did it, as you say, without all the knowledge that should have been at his disposal (Midis), without proper training (no one to spar with), and without a sustained and consistent learning environment. To add a concept like Midi's (the physics as you say) to the saga, really undermines the very human struggle that Luke went through, which is something that a very Earth bound audience could empathize with quite easily. Luke has been robbed of everything that allowed him to succeed in the first place. Now all of his accomplishments can be attributed, not to his own perserverence, committment, and internal fortitude, but to tiny little bugs.

(I liken this to the, what I consider, silly statements made by athletes after winning a big game. Usually you hear something like this: "I just gotta thank God for helping us win this game...."

I gotta stop em right there. Two HUGE problems with that. The first is, if God came down from on High to help that schmoe-head win the game, does that mean that he actually wanted the other team to lose? Maybe God had odds on the game, who knows how the guy operates. :rolleyes:

The second thing is that by crediting God with helping him and the team to win, he is suggesting that they required Divine Intervention to do it. In essence, their own skill and perserverence wasn't enough. By crediting a Higher Power, they are suggesting that humans do not have what it takes within themselves to overcome great odds.

This is EXACTLY what the inclusion of Midi's does to the Saga. George has removed that which made this a very human and empathetical story, and reduced it to one in which the characters are incapable of solving their own problems without Divine Intervention.)

Anakin, on the other hand, has been granted superhuman status. Not only does he know about the Midi's, but he is supersaturated as well. Now, perhaps Luke is too after the fact, but we certainly didn't know that back in '77 (and I would bet all that I have to say that neither did George). This argument of mine is based, not entirely on raw argumentative conjecture (ie, Luke was told offscreen, et al), but also on the consistency between the episodes which are supposed to create one larger story. Dropping one domino in the Prequels which wasn't established for the saga earlier (in linear history) doesn't work for me. All the rationalization in the world still means that George wrote and produced a story which requires a significant amount of excuses in order to make it work. And for someone who should know better on how to create a "well told story," it's highly disappointing.

2-1B

09-16-2003, 12:57 PM

stillakid, you agree that Luke got further without the knowledge of the midichlorians, yet you're still hung up on the fact that he "wasn't told." You're arguing that it would make the most sense for him to be "told everything" but you're saying that Luke got far enough without them anyway. To me, that answers your question of what leads me to believe that Anakin's knowledge of the midichlorians didn't enhance his training . . . so I'd like to hear from you why it would be so important for Luke to learn about them when he got so far without them anyway ? :confused:

Nope, I don't buy that thing about "Earth bound audience empathy" at all. Sure, maybe in ANH because Luke shows absolutely no superhuman abilities but when it comes to ESB, FORGET IT. Can you imagine how many times I watched the Wampa scenes when I was a kid and then tried to copy what I saw? I tried time after time after time to Force pull objects to me just like Luke did with that lightsaber in the snow - and I failed EVERY time.
It's impossible.
We don't have the Force here on Earth.
We can't move objects through the air.
We can't play Dr. Mindbender on the weak minded.

Maybe we could all empathize with Luke making a 'one in a million' shot during the Trench Run on the Death Star, but I have to laugh at the idea of human based empathy with Luke from the Wampa Ice Cave, from his levitations on Dagobah, and onward to ROTJ.

And all of this begins 19 years before the midichlorians make their way onscreen. ;)

TheDarthVader

09-16-2003, 01:36 PM

Good points Caesar and funny you should mention trying to force pull objects...when I was young, I would try to levitate objects up into the air. I would close my eyes and concentrate with all of my energy to lift things. I actually pretended that I did lift the particular object but I could not see it because my eyes were closed. It was similar to Yoda keeping his eyes closed in ESB when he lifts Luke's X-wing. The idea is silly now that I am older ;) . But I tried to use the force!!! :crazed:

stillakid

09-16-2003, 01:41 PM

stillakid, you agree that Luke got further without the knowledge of the midichlorians, yet you're still hung up on the fact that he "wasn't told."
No, that's not what I said nor implied. You said that. ;) What I said was that this idea of "who got farther" or whatnot was pure speculation and conjecture. What Luke did do in a non-Midichlorian universe was accomplish everything on his own. Whether he got "further" than Anakin (in a time ratio) is purely speculative. In fact, I happen to disagree with it. Particularly in response to your previous assertion about Luke's lightsaber training (not being onscreen). While certainly, he managed to wield it, it was certainly anything from graceful. In fact, it would be accurate to describe most of his fighting in ROTJ as "hacking away." Very far from the skillful maneveurs that Anakin displayed in AOTC.

So, that being the case, I assume that the rest of this is based on a faulty assumption, but I'll attempt to answer your questions anyhow...

You're arguing that it would make the most sense for him to be "told everything" but you're saying that Luke got far enough without them anyway.
No, as you mentioned before, Vader was taking it easy on Luke because he wanted him alive (particularly in ESB). By no means did Luke learn enough to really adequately defend himself against a foe who would have been out for blood. My original contention is that given the imperative nature of the galatic situation, meaning that the Empire was poised to wipe out the last remnants of the Republic/Rebellion and there were only two Jedi left at the time of ANH, it would seem prudent to teach the "New Hope" absolutely everything there is to know about The Force and what makes it really work.

Of course, then, some people get into the argument about what did or did not happen onscreen and off, which, of course, is pure speculation.

To me, that answers your question of what leads me to believe that Anakin's knowledge of the midichlorians didn't enhance his training . . . so I'd like to hear from you why it would be so important for Luke to learn about them when he got so far without them anyway ? :confused:
See above. From what I saw onscreen in all five movies, Luke didn't learn enough, fast enough, to do what needed to be done if he had to do it all by himself. His moderate "hacking" skills got him by on the Skiff and the same later on prior to taking Vader's hand off. As it turned out, everything worked out because Luke lucked out. (lot's of outs...sorry about that). But anyway, because of Luke's psychological warfare against Vader, he didn't need any "Jedi skills" anyway. Close to being finished off, it was only because Vader saw the light that Luke was saved. "The Force" and "Midi's" and all that other Jedi stuff had nothing to do with it at all. In the end, it was a father's love for his son...a very human act.

Nope, I don't buy that thing about "Earth bound audience empathy" at all. Sure, maybe in ANH because Luke shows absolutely no superhuman abilities but when it comes to ESB, FORGET IT. Can you imagine how many times I watched the Wampa scenes when I was a kid and then tried to copy what I saw? I tried time after time after time to Force pull objects to me just like Luke did with that lightsaber in the snow - and I failed EVERY time.
It's impossible.
We don't have the Force here on Earth.
We can't move objects through the air.
We can't play Dr. Mindbender on the weak minded.
Yeah, well, you could apply that same line of thinking to just about any work of fiction. Rarely do real people talk the way fictional characters talk and even more rarely do any of us act the way fictional characters act. But just because John Connor, or John McClane, or Captain Ahab, or James Bond, or any one of the thousands of "larger than life" fictional characters we enjoy possess toys, skills, or fanciful powers that we will never have ourselves, doesn't mean that the trials and tribulations that they go through can't be applied to our own lives.

So while our suspension of disbelief allows us to enter the story so fully as to believe that Luke can "use the Force" even though we can't, it is his farmboyish naivete and the dream of bigger things that so many people could relate to and empathize with, not your notion that it was the supernatural power that people were gravitating toward. It was his very humanness, both the faults and the ultimate struggle which he accomplished using his human nature, which allowed him to succeed. Yes, he used the Force, but only as a tool, in the same way that any number of fictional heroes use guns, whips, or computers. But it is the addition of Midichlorians, DIVINE INTERVENTION if you will, which now sets Luke and all others like him, above the normal human experience. He has been given a godlike status, as if he were Hercules amongst mere immortals. While I respect George's ambition to meld ancient philosophies and influences together to create a rich tapestry which we know as Star Wars, this is taking it a bit too far. In the same way we could never really relate to an ancient deity, a superhuman like Luke, has been ripped from the fabric of the human experience. And for what? The chance to "explain"