we need a "general political discussion" forum [Archive]

keith koth

04-09-2003, 08:25 PM

SirSteve,

I am respectfully requesting that you please implement a forum inwhich we Star Wars enthusiast may openly discuss "general" political issues and current events as they relate to Star Wars.

Today I had a thread locked after posting a comparison between the celebration of the liberated Iraqi people and the celebration of the people of the SW universe after Emperor Palpatine and his evil "regime" were destroyed at the end of ROTJ.

I was not making any political statements or judgements, nor was I imposing my views onto anyone. I was merely pointing out the similarities between the two situations.

Star Wars, even by George Luscas's own account, is a politically driven movie. Thus, I see SW as more than just a series of movies. I see it as an opportunity to learn about the potential pitfalls of society's decisions. (Example: Cloning and the negative aspects of it)

In my opinion, we should be able to discuss these "real life" situations and draw comparisons between them and SW...If for no other reason than to perhaps educate ourselves and others.

I suppose I could utilize other forums on other websites for my political outlet; however, I would much prefer to discuss these issues here with my Star Wars loving peers.

For those who oppose political discussion, a clearly titled forum labeled as "general political discussion" should help them stay clear of such issues.

I will close with this statement: To deny political discussion is to deny an essential aspect of SW.

Respectfully,

Keith Koth

Jedi_Master_Guyute

04-09-2003, 08:30 PM

I find it beautifully ironic that you are all about free speech one day and then you want another well respected forum member's name changed, aka: censorship. It works both ways, my young padawan, and in the words of the Rolling Stones, "you can't always get, what ya want" Cheers!! :D

Beast

04-09-2003, 08:36 PM

I made my opinion of your "suggestion" made perfectly clear. Keep it banned. There are other things to discuss outside the political BS that always leads to fights. If you want to discuss the politics in Star Wars, then cool. But using them as fairly flimsy means to discuss politics is bunk.

And the "God Bless the US" statement was as well. What, does no other country deserve to be blessed. Maybe I don't like the idea of the country being blessed by the Christian God. While your at it, why not support a "General Religion Discussion" and "General Sex Discussion" forum, as well. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth

04-09-2003, 08:40 PM

Yeah,

Here is the difference:

If there is a forum clearly marked "general political discussion", then those that oppose can stay clear of such topics.

However, in QLD's case, it was his name that was offensive...and you can never tell when or where he will post; thus, making us all at risk of seeing such offensive material.

If there was a forum for people with offensive user names to post, and it was clearly marked as such, then you would have a valid point.

There is a difference between obscene language and political discussion. Otherwise, along with history and social studies, kids would also have a school course covering naughty language.

Get my point?

Beast

04-09-2003, 08:45 PM

His name wasn't offending anyone but you. You making a huge mountain out of a molehile is what made it get changed.

By the way, there is a school course that covers naughty language. It's called recess. The point is moot. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jedi_Master_Guyute

04-09-2003, 08:53 PM

eh, i believe i get your point, but one could also say that you could click "IGNORE" for that member and ignore him and his posts completely.

Granted, you might see his name a few times here and there, but i find it hard to believe if you can sit and watch the tragedy and terror of war, you should be able to take a name that wasn't even offensive with a grain of salt. You're prolly an adult, so I would assume that shouldn't irk ya too bad. Bloody war vs. "offensive" name, yeah, i think a war wins out. Good try though!

That is all i shall say, let us wait for JT or SS to reply, though i'm pretty sure i know what their answer shall be.

keith koth

04-09-2003, 09:25 PM

May I suggest we have a ligitimate poll on the topic. Political discussion forum or no political discussion forum.

We could also have a poll regarding reinstating QLD's name.

I have no problem going with the majority rules on either of these matters.

If constant moderation on a political forum is a problem, then I am more than willing to moderate...and I am sure there are others who would be willing to moderate as well.

Beast

04-09-2003, 09:38 PM

Just look for Sir Steve's thread, asking if he should allow or not, discussion of politics or religion. The majority went with the banning of those topics. So no need for a poll. Majority already rules, except for those that like to rock the boat. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth

04-09-2003, 09:47 PM

JarJarBinks,

excuse me for not reading every post on every thread in every forum! How dare me!

I've got better things to do than read uninteresting ramblings.

It would be nice if you would quit your little battle with me. I'm not sure what your beef with me is, but I will be the bigger man and offer you an apology for whatever it is that I did to offend you. Now, with that said, please leave me alone (i.e., quit criticizing everything I have to say...you know there is a SSG forum policy against that!) I have no problem with you, and would find my experience here at SSG much more enjoyable if we could all just get along.

I offer a truce...do you accept?

James Boba Fettfield

04-09-2003, 09:51 PM

Tycho made that Religion/Political pros and cons thread, JJB.

Beast

04-09-2003, 09:56 PM

That's why I said to search, and you shall find. That's why the forums have a search feature. And you've been here since Feb. 2002, so you think you would have ran across it. Since it was a large deal at the time. :)

Battle with you, I'm honored for you to think that I would waste my time battling with anyone. I'm offering you info. Take it or leave it for what you will. But you are posting on a message board, which allows others to respond.

I was offering said info, since you obviously missed it. No need to apoligize or whatever you're doing. I don't even know what your talking about. This is a discussion forum, I am debating your opinion. Not criticizing you for having that opinion. I'm sorry for you, if deep down you consider that to be ture. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Beast

04-09-2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by James Boba Fettfield
Tycho made that Religion/Political pros and cons thread, JJB.
You're right, my bad. But it was in response to JT mentioning that Steve was considering banning the topics. :)

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17235

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth

04-09-2003, 10:07 PM

How are you debating this...it is not an opinion, rather it is a request. A request to SirSteve, as you can clearly see at the top of this thread it is directed to SirSteve not JarJarBinks. I get the point that a decision has previously been made regarding this topic; however, I would like to discuss it directly with SirSteve not JarJarBinks.

I posted it in this forum, because as the title states, this the proper place for Comments/Suggestions.

Now unless SirSteve specifically gave you permission to speak on his behalf, I would appreciate it if you would remain idle on this topic until SirSteve has commented on my request.

Why not go start your own thread applauding sirsteve's decision to ban political topics. I gaurentee you I would not feel it necessary to throw my $0.02 worth in, as I really have no interest in arguing with someone who has no authority on the matter.

Apology retracted per your request.

Thank you and have a nice day. :)

Beast

04-09-2003, 10:18 PM

Actually, the topic of the thread reads "We Need" not "I Need". Since you wish to speak for everyone with the all encompassing "We Need" I feel I should represent those folks that don't feel that "We Need" a forum were people can bicker and fight. If you're going to include everyone when you make your comments and suggestions, you are going to get debated on that inclusion. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth

04-09-2003, 10:23 PM

Last time I looked in the thesarus, we was not synonymous with everyone. We refers to more than one...and I know for a fact that there are other users of these forums that would like to discuss politics AS IT RELATES TO STAR WARS.

Why don't you go get educated before you run off at the mouth.

keith koth

04-09-2003, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by JediBrian
you guys are fussing and fighting over the mere possiblity of a thread about politics and religion, imagine what it will be like if there IS one.

Thank you! you just proved my point.

It doesn't matter what the topic is, there will always be "bickering" between forumites. However, I see nothing wrong with that as long as there is no name calling, no harassment, and no cursing. It is all for fun, right?

BTW, I don't care anything about a forum discussing religion...I'll let someone else lobby for that.

Beast

04-09-2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by keith koth
Last time I looked in the thesarus, we was not synonymous with everyone. We refers to more than one...and I know for a fact that there are other users of these forums that would like to discuss politics AS IT RELATES TO STAR WARS.

Why don't you go get educated before you run off at the mouth.
Main Entry: we
Pronunciation: 'wE
Function: pronoun, plural in construction
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English wE; akin to Old High German wir we, Sanskrit vayam
Date: before 12th century
1 : I and the rest of a group that includes me : you and I : you and I and another or others : I and another or others not including you -- used as pronoun of the first person plural; compare I, OUR, OURS, US
2 : 1I -- used by sovereigns; used by writers to keep an impersonal character
So it's clearly pretty inclusive when you say we. So maybe you should check into things, before you debate someone on the meanings of words. Either way, the use of we is making a broad generalized comment inclusive of the majority agreeing that they need the same. And I've yet to see the same. So take your own advice, and look into some edjumucation before you want to debate the word we. You sound like Clinton debating the word "is". :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks

04-09-2003, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
If you want to discuss the politics in Star Wars, then cool. But using them as fairly flimsy means to discuss politics is bunk. That is a pretty good take on the general Political Topics issue as it stands now.

This is not the first time this has been brought up since the policy change about R&P threads, and my stance on it is still that the forums aren't ready to create a section like this. Someone suggested having moderators for that section alone, but not only would it be a massive job, it would also be nigh-impossible since anybody with a viewpoint different from the moderator would claim bias against them; to counter that, folks have suggested that it be unmoderated, but then what happens if someone comes in with swearing or sex or just spams the heck out of every thread in that section, a moderator will HAVE to step in.

Basically, it seems right now that there are some people who invest too much personal ego into their political viewpoints which leads to massive brawling and flamewars and a section dedicated to just that would be a madhouse and would spill into other sections too quickly for the staff to clean up.

As for QLD's username, that had been an issue that had come up several times in the past few years, it was no one person's comments that changed Steve's mind on the issue.

keith koth

04-09-2003, 10:45 PM

English 101:

I didn't see the word "everyone" anywhere in there.

if it was synonymous, then it would at least mention the word "everyone"

Why don't you look up "everyone"...nowhere does it mention the word "we"

Therefore, they are mutually exclusive words.

I didn't say "we all", which would include "everyone".

keith koth

04-09-2003, 11:00 PM

JT,

I get your point, but did you read my thread I started in the General Discussion forum "Iraqi people dancing in the streets"? I believe that what I posted was not politically driven whatsoever; rather, I tried to draw a comparison between SW and current events...and it was strikingly similar in my opinion. My thread was seen as political because of 3 words: Iraqi, liberation, and Baghdad. No where did I comment on any political view.

I am simply requesting a forum where folks could draw similar comparisons between "real life" events and Star Wars events. No one would be allowed to push political ideas, no one would be able to use the forum as a political platform, no one would be allowed to promote or criticize other political views...they would simply draw COMPARISONS.

I'm sure political threads will continue to pop up and moderators like yourself will continue to lock/edit/delete them...so, why fight the inevitable, just make a simple forum for those who want to discuss such matters and everyone who does not want to discuss POLITICS AS IT RELATES TO STAR WARS can just abstain from the forum.

Darth Jax

04-10-2003, 12:06 AM

originally posted by KK
I'm sure political threads will continue to pop up and moderators like yourself will continue to lock/edit/delete them...so, why fight the inevitable, just make a simple forum for those who want to discuss such matters and everyone who does not want to discuss POLITICS AS IT RELATES TO STAR WARS can just abstain from the forum.

or sir steve and the mod's can enforce the rules as understood, which can end in a ban of the party continuing to start threads of a political aspect regardless of the posted rules.

SirSteve

04-10-2003, 12:42 AM

We can't win... we are never going to be able to make everyone happy on this subject so we have to go with the majority and the majority is this is a Star Wars site and politics and religion cause heated discussions just are not needed.

I hope that discussing the politics within the movies (which is ok) will not get to that point. I don't think it will....

JediTricks

04-10-2003, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by keith koth
I get your point, but did you read my thread I started in the General Discussion forum "Iraqi people dancing in the streets"? I believe that what I posted was not politically driven whatsoever; rather, I tried to draw a comparison between SW and current events...and it was strikingly similar in my opinion. My thread was seen as political because of 3 words: Iraqi, liberation, and Baghdad. No where did I comment on any political view.
First off, your original thread (pre-edit) was a little more leading about political issues and you didn't really give much of a comparison to Star Wars; if I had seen it that way, I would have closed it too.

Secondly, that thread wasn't closed right away, only after it was clearly turning into a bickerfest.

Originally posted by keith koth
I am simply requesting a forum where folks could draw similar comparisons between "real life" events and Star Wars events. No one would be allowed to push political ideas, no one would be able to use the forum as a political platform, no one would be allowed to promote or criticize other political views...they would simply draw COMPARISONS.Well, technically that's not disallowed now, but it is very easy for the veil of comparison to be too thin - some people have tried this already and others immediately felt that they were pushing political agendas and opinions under the guise of comparing Star Wars to current events. In fact, there's even a thread that is open right now that did this, yet you didn't post there, you started a new thread in Gen Disc with a title that had nothing to do with SW and seemed to have nothing actually there to discuss.

2-1B

04-10-2003, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by JediTricks
As for QLD's username, that had been an issue that had come up several times in the past few years, it was no one person's comments that changed Steve's mind on the issue.

Yes, and several times in the past few years it was apparently decided to allow the name to stay every time. :)
JT, you must realize how coincidental the timing appears when that GONKer got riled up over who-knows-what and ran off to complain about a username in a whinefest that was CLEARLY not even motivated by the username in question. Within days, our beloved QLD had been stripped of his identity . . . :D :D :D

Fine, MAYBE it was a coincidence, but please realize how absurd it looks.

Besides, I can't believe you guys allowed the LIMP name ! ! !
What's up with that ? I think it is 10 times worse than QLD. :crazed:

It's nothing personal, please don't take offense to this. :)
I respect Steve's right to make these decisions, I'm just pointing out how foolish it looks. :)

As for a specific "Political Forum", I think it's a foolish idea and should not be put in place. I'd hate to enter a political thread and offend someone with my politics only to have that person run off and complain about my name. :crazed:

PoggleTheGreater

04-10-2003, 06:42 AM

It seems talking about wether or not we should talk about politics and religion should be banned too. :)

I already requested a special area alowing discussion of these subjects, but it was denied and I'll respect SirSteve's wishes.

About the Misc. forum being unneccisary (from the other thread), I think the General Discussion area was originally intended for general discussion about Star Wars and the Other area was intended for discussion of non Star Wars topics.

The Overlord Returns

04-10-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by SirSteve
We can't win... we are never going to be able to make everyone happy on this subject so we have to go with the majority and the majority is this is a Star Wars site and politics and religion cause heated discussions just are not needed.

I hope that discussing the politics within the movies (which is ok) will not get to that point. I don't think it will....

May I ask why we can't simply have a policy that states those who do not wish to see a political argument thread, simply do not OPEN that political argument thread?

Seriously, I see threads all the time that I don't bother getting involved in, as the interest just isn't there for me. Don't like it, don't read it.

However, I would throw my support in the ring for a political discussion thread, I can even suggest the idea that the moment you personally insult someone (which I believe is a huge reason nehind the banning of P&R threads) it's an instant ban from the forum?

That'd learn 'em pretty quick. ;)

keith koth

04-10-2003, 11:18 AM

Well, SirSteve has spoken. I must respect his wishes; however, I respectfully disagree.

I still think it would be possible to maintain order in such a forum. One could simply suspend or ban those who curse or those who spam the heck out of every thread in that section.

I don't see what is so wrong with a bickerfest? if you don't like it then don't read it. As long as there is no cursing, no name calling, no threats, or no harassment...then what is the big deal...I see people do what I would consider "bickering" every day in every single forum on this website...what you consider "bickering" I consider "debate". It is all in fun and no one gets hurt.

Oh well, I suppose I will just boycott SSG.

I bet www.RebelScum.com will allow us to debate politics as it relates to Star Wars. May I suggest that those who would like to continue such discussions follow this link: http://forums.rebelscum.com/cgi-bin/

Have a nice day...I hope your website continues to have great success. :)

PoggleTheGreater

04-10-2003, 11:38 AM

There is civilized debate and there is uncivilized arguing witch involves disrespectful and inproper personal attacks. Most of us are capable of being civil in a debate, but some of us are not so civilized. Though these kinds of conversations usually start out friendly, they often inevitabley break out into bitter fights.

Patient Zero

04-10-2003, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by keith koth
I still think it would be possible to maintain order in such a forum. One could simply suspend or ban those who curse or those who spam the heck out of every thread in that section.

I don't see what is so wrong with a bickerfest? if you don't like it then don't read it. As long as there is no cursing, no name calling, no threats, or no harassment...then what is the big deal...I see people do what I would consider "bickering" every day in every single forum on this website...what you consider "bickering" I consider "debate". It is all in fun and no one gets hurt.

I am all for political and religious discussions, HOWEVER it does not just boil down to the problems of swearing and verbal attacks. Some people here simply refuse to consider the ideas of others as being worth the slightest consideration as do many people in the everyday world. Some people just like to hear themselves speak and will accept no responce that is contradictory to their ideas. They believe that their way is the right way and everyone else needs to be saved from their own stupidity. This is the difference between a debate and bickering. A debate has the possibility of ending with both sides redefining what they think in a way that is benifical to the evolution of their beliefs and in doing so find a new respect for one another. Where as bickering is just mindless mudslinging. But perhaps this is just the semantics of definitions.

Anyway, let me ask you a question. How would you repremand someone who continualy attempts to validate an idea and get others to conform to it over several pages when it is obvious that others find no validity in that idea. The waist of space, time and bickering is pointless and will certainly end up causing gaps between people on the forum. If what you believe works for you then great, but it rarely works the same way for others so don't try to shove your ideas down the throats of others. If you want to express them then fine, but to demand that everyone jump on your philisophical bandwagon is arrogant and egotistical.

Point being--> We are only going to be able to have these discussions here when everyone treats others with the same respect that they expect others to treat them with.

If you don't like what I wrote, then don't. If you have a better solution then you have my attention. If you are just going to bicker pointlessly then shove off. This is my opinion and until I find something better, I'm sticking to it.

Nite now! :Pirate:

The Overlord Returns

04-10-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by keith koth
Well, SirSteve has spoken. I must respect his wishes; however, I respectfully disagree.

I still think it would be possible to maintain order in such a forum. One could simply suspend or ban those who curse or those who spam the heck out of every thread in that section.

I don't see what is so wrong with a bickerfest? if you don't like it then don't read it. As long as there is no cursing, no name calling, no threats, or no harassment...then what is the big deal...I see people do what I would consider "bickering" every day in every single forum on this website...what you consider "bickering" I consider "debate". It is all in fun and no one gets hurt.

Oh well, I suppose I will just boycott SSG.

I bet www.RebelScum.com will allow us to debate politics as it relates to Star Wars. May I suggest that those who would like to continue such discussions follow this link: http://forums.rebelscum.com/cgi-bin/

Have a nice day...I hope your website continues to have great success. :)

Well now you are just being silly.....

Besides, Rebelscums forums suck. ;)

sith_killer_99

04-10-2003, 12:12 PM

I bet www.RebelScum.com will allow us to debate politics as it relates to Star Wars. May I suggest that those who would like to continue such discussions follow this link: http://forums.rebelscum.com/cgi-bin/

Have a nice day...I hope your website continues to have great success.

Well, let's see, we have had forum members boycott SSG because of Religious/Political threads. So this is really nothing new.

Then again, we've also had RS members sign up over here just to start a bunch of flame wars, so that's nothing new either.:rolleyes:

I fail to see why the two can't co-exist. I have met a few folks here who surf both forums, and most of them are good people.

I've been here since 1999, and trust me SSG will continue to have great success.

Beast

04-10-2003, 12:27 PM

Yeah, don't use Rebelscum's forums as somthing to look up to. That place is a nearly unmoderated mess, where flame wars and personnal attacks are the dish of the day alongside a large helping of Star Wars. Not to mention the forum software that they use sucks on toast. Go play over there for a bit, and you'll see what we mean. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B

04-10-2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by keith koth
Oh well, I suppose I will just boycott SSG.

Promise ? :D

Patient Zero

04-10-2003, 03:17 PM

Ban 'em! Just ban 'em! Hell, make me a moderator and I'll ban him...then I'll ban myself. That will show all of ya!

James Boba Fettfield

04-10-2003, 04:08 PM

If only moderators had the power of banishment. Wait, no, probably best they didn't grant that power to us.

JediTricks

04-11-2003, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by Caesar
Yes, and several times in the past few years it was apparently decided to allow the name to stay every time. :)
JT, you must realize how coincidental the timing appears when that GONKer got riled up over who-knows-what and ran off to complain about a username in a whinefest that was CLEARLY not even motivated by the username in question. Within days, our beloved QLD had been stripped of his identity . . . :D :D :D

Fine, MAYBE it was a coincidence, but please realize how absurd it looks.Sometimes things look one way but aren't because the behind-the-scenes stuff is stuff you guys don't see, we got a complaint about QLD's username like 2 days before and several newbies right around then with equally-suggestive names ask why QLD was allowed to have that username. Steve had already been thinking about it when those complaints came in, keith's thread was just part of a stack of statements about it that affected how Steve formed his opinion on the issue.

Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater
About the Misc. forum being unneccisary (from the other thread), I think the General Discussion area was originally intended for general discussion about Star Wars and the Other area was intended for discussion of non Star Wars topics. The OTHER section was clearly defined when we made it: GEN DISC was exactly that, "general discussion", but lots of threads had gone into non-discussion topics like "list this" or "I like things" threads. Gen Disc was always general stuff, not just SW, and other was for the non-discussion threads that didn't fit within Gen Disc.

Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
May I ask why we can't simply have a policy that states those who do not wish to see a political argument thread, simply do not OPEN that political argument thread?

Seriously, I see threads all the time that I don't bother getting involved in, as the interest just isn't there for me. Don't like it, don't read it. That's been suggested before, but even some titles can create political frustrations and arguments which just leads the users into the slippery slope. Plus, I've found these arguments can get so heated that they spill out into other sections.

Lman316

04-13-2003, 10:28 PM

If I may be so bold to ask: why is it not acceptable to talk of political and religious items in the forums when they're allowed on the front page?

It is exactly the same except for the cowardly French sticker on the back...

Now, I'm not using this to say that I'm for a new policy on Religious and Political topics - I'm with the majority on that and I believe it's just for the better not to have them.
But when I read that statement, I honestly felt that it doesn't belong there. Although it's quite possible that I'm mis-reading it. It's possible the author thinks the sticker itself is cowardly...:rolleyes:.
Whether it's meant to be humorous or not, I still find it to be inappropriate for the main page, regardless of how I might feel on that subject.

Or am I just causing trouble? :p

End...

Beast

04-13-2003, 10:56 PM

That is a tad assinine. But that's the dish of the day when you read Thrawn's news stories. He often enjoys slipping little things into his stories like that. Typically they are just comments directed at Star Wars, Hasbro, or Lucas/Lucasfilm.

Nice to see that he's moving onto whole countries. Or just anyone that speaks french, like they do in some areas of Canada. You'll have to excuse him. I should hope our French forumites (like 187-Maul) don't think that Mr. Thrawn's thinly veiled rude comments go for everyone here. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks