Religious / Political Discussion Threads (Pros and Cons)

[Tycho]

JediTricks asked for a discussion about the following:

Temporary ban on religious threads Post #1

Something that's concerned the forums staff for quite a while is the level of incivility stemming from certain "hot button" topics such as religion and politics. We've gotten complaints about this several times, and certainly we've witnessed it far more often than we'd like. For a while, we had been trying out techniques like the "2-in-12 rule", but it's becoming apparent that the depth of the situation goes further than even that can accomodate.

The topic of religion has always been one of a sensitive nature that holds deep, unique meaning for each individual; during open discussion, this can cause misunderstanding and even disrespect to be interpretted by others when this may or may not be the author's intent, and this often leads to hurt feelings and infighting and scores of other unpleasantries. Sometimes, the very notion of discussing these issues can be an affront to others beliefs leading to frustration and anger.

The option of a permanent ban on these subjects has been brought up more than once by the forums staff and is currently being strongly considered. I believe a 72-hour period to reflect upon this and consider how to better deal with these issues may help, but this is pretty much the last chance -- after this, if more problems arise, the ban on all religious topics will likely become permanent.

These forums are an all-ages site, we welcome and try to keep a fun place for everybody. If you would like to make a comment or suggestion about anything related to the forums or the site, please post in the Comments/Suggestions forum. Thank you for your understanding.

I would not like to see this happen. I take it that there have been some new religious discussion threads I have not participated in, because I'm usually one of the Atheist / Agnostic bunch right in the center of one of these debates.

I'll check out those threads and maybe revise my opinion.

Meanwhile, I also like the political threads and am most likely found on the Democrat's side of the issues, though I surprise people every now and then, like my favoring gun rights for individuals, and other solutions to stop school and gang violence.

However, that's not what we're discussing in this thread.

I'm defending the fact that I like to discuss these matters with people I've met and come to know on this site through countless topics of discussion. I respect their opinion and their ability to articulate, which is exactly why I want to discuss these things with them - to either support my position, or listen to an intelligent argument from the other side, proponed by someone I respect.

I will name names, because I harbor no ill feelings towards anyone here.

Stillakid is safe to use as an example, because he knows I bring him up to illustrate this point:

Stillakid almost hates the prequels. He agrees with me about a lot of religious and political issues, but we have had constant battles about his (stupid, intolerant, stubborn, prejudiced - just kidding) opinions about the newer SW films versus the Classic ones.

Stillakid is a friend, but from our debates about the SW films - what this site owes its very existence to - you'd never know it because it got pretty ugly and almost (or did) required a 2-in-twelve-hours rule.

So if we can get into about Star Wars - over Fans Choice Poll figures even, it's almost as personal as religious or political issues.

EmperorJargo and JarJarBinks fight constantly about negativity versus optimism over the action figures.

I even have gotten into it over Star Wars issues with JediTricks and Thrawn on the staff here.

Because I'm King-of-Nerds or something, I take those Star Wars issues pretty personal too. Are you telling me that Lord Vader is not God, and Lucas is not his super-naturally-inspired Prophet?

I'm already putting it in my final will that my body should be burned on a wooden pallet, out in the open, with all of my friends and relatives wearing brown or black robes surrounding me!

Now are you going to make fun of me? :happy:

I realize people in this world are killing each other over religious and political issues. Communication is what they are lacking. I've been schooled in conflict resolution, worked in mediation in government practice. So far as what I've seen, the discussions here are intense, but healthy. Otherwise people tend to fortify their positions and never hear another's point of view.

Doing so and learning about each other when we already have friendships and respect each other as fellow hobbyists in a very dedicated and passionate common interest, can only help those of very strict Christian viewpoints, or those practicing alternate lifestyles, etc. gain exposure to people from different backgrounds that they already know and actually have some things in common with. People tend to start to only meet others from their church, or G&L Groups or whatever - which I think are the two major faction formers here - because they aren't exposed to different people they have occasion to stop, talk to, and form a bond with. Here, we are all united as SW collectors and work with each other to provide information, trading partners, and enjoy campaigning for our favorite Fans' Choice
Figure.

Like I said, we learn to respect each other's opinions in other areas, I think it's good we communicate under those conditions about more controversial things. The first step in mediation is to find common grounds - even a dog disturbance case both has two neighbors that bought homes and love having property with some space available to them (one for a pet, obviously).

So I like having one forums group where I go to. Remember the movie "Fight Club?" I'd feel awfully awkward finding a forums group with strangers who are fighting testicular cancer and asking them, "So how many of you collect Star Wars figures?" "Yeah, well what would you do about the Palestinian situation?"

Chances are they'd think I was nuts. (at least I'd have my nuts). You guys all know I'm nuts, but you accept me and talk to me anyway, and I think I'm a fairly good reader and read your opinions, and especially in the Episode 3 sections, you guys have responded nicely to mine.

I don't want to lose the priviledge of discussing anything with you guys, so I'm against this potential policy of no religious or political discussions.

Kids likely do not read them, or would get bored of them awfully quickly. They make up their minds fast, and don't really think about these kinds of things when they're that young - or often even when they're our age (I assume I'm adressing a majority of 20-somethings - AND IN HOW MANY ELECTIONS HAVE YOU VOTED OUT OF HOW MANY YOU WERE ELIGIBLE TO?....Rrrrright!)

So as long as discussions don't become graphic about death threats or alternative lifestyle activities, I don't see a reason to ban them. We should continue to be free to discuss things in a general or 'other' topic thread as they come up - and present them to our peers with whom we've already established both some report and something already in common with them.

That's my several dollars' worth.

[EricRG]

Personally, I think the political discussions are great. I've learnt a great deal about how people possessing vastly different viewpoints from myself here on SirSteves. The discussion usually stays civilized, altough at times, things do degenerate into personal attacks, which are wrong on any thread. But these things are usually handled by moderators, to me, in an effective way by first warning, then closing threads. Quite frankly, if political discussions were banned here on SSG, I don't think I'd have much to write about anymore. I love the diverse political opinions on SSG, despite the infrequent personal attacks.

I have the opposite opinion of "religious threads". I put this in quotes because, in fact, these "discussions" are rarely actually discussions but are almost exclusively started by people who believe in some form of "Christianity", often in some sort of proselytizing vein. Others then join in, often in a mocking manner because the attitude of many of the Christian postings is often "holier-than-thou". Quite frankly, I'd be all for a REAL discussion of religion in a more all-encompassing sort of format. But these sort of threads simply don't exist. I would actually support banishment of religious topics on SSG.

[James Boba Fettfield]

I don't do much discussion in political threads, because I am firm in what I believe. I see it as pointless to try to get someone to understand why I have the beliefs I do, so I'll just keep my political discussions between myself and Lord Malakite. Not to say others won't miss them, because I can see some people do. Personally, they can be gone and it's fine. BUT, I'm not everyone here and I have noticed a lot of people like to discuss political issues in a civil manner.

Now for the issue of religious threads, a lot of them start off innocent enough. After the thread exists for a bit it is invaded, for lack of a better word, by people who don't follow the beliefs of those being discussed. Some people like to mock the ideas, others like to just poke blatant fun at the ideas. This cannot be tolerated, but it seems all of the religion related threads are plagued by this. Not many of these current religious threads have gotten anywhere productive, which could be blamed by their topics to begin with. I suppose the same could be said about the political threads, since they can involve the same elements. Then again, I have seen threads that are related to Star Wars turn out the same way. They turn into people with opposing beliefs about this and that, which sometimes ends up with the users attacking each other outside of the topic at hand.

My point is this: Head butting will always occur, but some threads encourage it more than others. Should we say goodbye to the more controversial threads? That's not for me to say, but they do provide a lot of good reading when I'm looking for an escape from analytical calculus. Perhaps a debate forum could be started that would need to have very strict guidelines, such as not attacking anyone personally, buy instead providing information to back up what you say. EricRG has become quite good at this in his arguments, and disagree I might on a lot of his beliefs, I respect him for arguing just those points and nothing more.

Another thing, it takes a certain level of maturity to receive a "butt kicking" in an argument and walk away without having a bruised ego, which is something that is lacking in some members of these forums. What I mean by that, don't enter a debate throwing out your opinion for others to accept, and then become angered when others don't take it as fact. I've been guilty of that in the past, and I saw that maybe I could avoid these debates for a bit because of this flaw in me. We just need to drop the holier than thou attitudes some of us have (me included), and not let the discussions get too personal that we start verbally attacking a person on a more personal level that is not related to the discussion at hand. I could cite examples of these actions, but I think most of you already have good enough examples in mind as you read this. With that being said, I'm out....

[Tycho]

Eric, while I tend to agree with you on a lot of topics, I had to reply quick to your post above:

- some of what you posted could be construed by Christians as an attack. I can see that, and I'm not a Christian.

Please don't edit your post or delete it, because it can serve as a valuable discussion piece, too.

What I see, is one kind of absolutism and intolerance, being traded for another:

Christians who sound 'holier than thou' to you, are absolutists when it comes to their Biblical interpretations. Everything is interpretable. "Thou Shall not Kill" does not say what Thou can't kill - so presumably a literal quagmire will occur because we'll starve if we can't harvest food, or hunt it, breed it, etc. and then we'll also be guilty of killing - ourselves. But I know what the commandment means - Thou Shall not kill MAN - and that includes women and children I'll also presume. So human life? What about abortion? It depends on people's views of whether God thinks of the zygote as human life, literally. When is something viable human life, though? Does potential to become viable, count? How about normal sentience, etc? What about animals such as whales that might be senient? What about killing animals for sport, or presumably for defense, such as a great white in a swimming area, which with a beach closed for as many days as it takes, would move on to other waters?

These become political issues, because I assume there are people who are not rich, and won't benefit from Bush's tax cuts, or don't even make enough to pay taxes, who still vote Republican - and a lot of them cite religious reasons for it. While those reasons should not be infiltrating a secular government election system, there are religious people who do not think our government should be, or even is presently, secular. They cite "shall establish no official religion, or restrict the practice of anyone's freedom of religion," as meaning literally that, but would bind us to the 'majority religion's' values on abortion, alternative lifestyle rights, cloning, war, environmental endowment versus sanctity of non-human life, etc. etc.

You can't discuss politics without discussing religion. I think they are inherently linked in this country.

Meanwhile, by asking not to allow religious discussions only, you are trying to shut out the Christians' freedom of expression because you don't want to hear it, or have heard it too often.

In effect, you want to be intolerant of their presumed intolerance.

You both are wrong and that's not the way to proceed to discussing these issues.

I also agree with you on another point: the moderators do a good job of editing, patroling, and closing threads that go bad. I'd rather see more public notice of a post's deletion in a thread with a public explanation (it can be short) versus the closing of a lively thread. That's what the moderator's job is supposed to do.

I see a few moderators who do not want that responsibility, or resent the fact that the socio-political-religious threads present the most amount of work for them to do. But as noted, I've seen SW threads that can equal if not surpass that amount of babysitting being required.

I'm more than happy about volunteering to do it. Report those threads to me. In spite of not being a Christian, I can see myself being more than fair with my moderating style.

I think that just seeing what's said in some posts other moderators have to edit, disturbs them and they find it distasteful or offensive themselves. I really am sorry about that.

The only thing I can offer is my help moderating them. I'll take the bad thread reports and handle it. Of course I'll need backup for when I'm offline or at work, but there's more than a few Mods here that would probably be willing.

That's what mods are for - not that you all shouldn't take it upon yourselves to restrain yourselves and watch what generalizations or personal attacks you make.

Don't make it so much more work for the Mods, as if myself and others tire from this, and there's no one left to volunteer to police these kinds of threads, then I'd reverse my position from before and say "I'm too tired of this as well."

But for right now, let's all talk and learn from one another with this thread. And please stay on topic.

[QLD]

Next Dar'Argol will impose a ban on Wal-Mart threads. :eek:

Seriously though, I don't like religious threads on the forum, because no good can come from it. Being a SW site, many of the people here are atheists. Because of that, what happens usually, is the atheists take "pot shots" at the "believers". I don't usually discuss my religious views at all because I don't like to. I think having more and more threads about them is a bad idea.

Political threads, well, those aren't quite as bad, though they can be. I sometimes take part, well, because these are trying times. But the same problem comes up. We have people devoted to political parties, and they always think their side is right ( or left in Tycho's case ;) ). Because of this, they aren't really any better than the reigious threads.

There are two things my grandfather told me not to talk about with people I like, and that is religion, and politics. Whenever you do, it leads to trouble.

Finally, I will say this, let those type of threads stay, but the mods should not tolerate any fighting, name-calling, insulting, or derogatory remarks in these threads. If it comes to that point, close the thread immediately. However, if these type of threads were banned, I would lose no sleep over it.

[EricRG]

Tycho-

I don't advocate banishment of only "Christian" threads - but rather banishment of ALL religious threads. You've seen it here and in real life a million times...Christians love to proselytize. Those seem to be the only threads that show up here...people who feel some sort of need to convert people. SSG doesn't need it...it just gets people to poke fun at them.

But I think QLD might be right...stricter moderation and a zero tolerance policy for personal attacks. (Altough I have seen other sites where Moderators have some sort of power hungry need to close as many threads as possible...I hope SSG would never come to something like that, and unfortunately, this would be a move in that direction.)

[Tycho]

This is the closed Seventh Day Adventist thread (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17029) which I find NOTHING wrong with.

I was not a participant, but would only be concerned if Gungan Warrior was offended.

There is an issue with the internet, that some people who might be home-schooled, are more easily offended by people not of their background, because they have had less opportunity to discuss things with a diverse group of people. (* I have no reason to think Gungan Warrior was home schooled, but it's come up when people have had trouble dealing with diversity here).

Anyway, people with less socialization come here for the same reason as everyone else does: they are moved by the spirit of Star Wars. That is our common fellowship, not something religious, but since we all feel it, religious folks are trying to feel out who else might have other things important in common with them. How could they tell if they don't ask? They also might want to convert people, but don't assume that is their intention. People are first and foremost seeking out online friends here - let's not forget that. People can understand how someone wanting a friendship would want to share other interests with people besides Star Wars. If someone tries advocating conversion, let them ask for private correspondence, or limit it to one thread - and let others respond there if they too must witness or something. Cut out the attacks. But the Christians on 'missions' should accept the declining of an online friend to join them at their first word. Those people declining, like myself, are not necessarily living alternative lifestyles - I'm Agnostic and heterosexual for example - and everyone considers themselves moral by their own standards. Morality is justification for a lifestyle, so even the immoral will think they are being morally justified to themselves to be immoral, so blanket statements about someone's lifestyle can be taken offsensively. Why not make statements about your own lifestyle and choose to say why you follow that, not what's wrong with other people's lifestyles?

I like girls and I'm not inclined to believe what's in a book and blindly, popularly followed - just because whatever's mass-produced benefits someone - of course the Bible publishers and every start-up religion that needs its own version. It's way too late to tell what is THE Bible, from where I stand. Which one sells the most copies isn't necessarily any more true than another. Science also is continuing to provide methods to learn and test theories about our origins that suggest evolution. Meanwhile, that in itself does not deny that there is a God, but suggests that Creation, which He still may be responsible for, did not happen as simply and literally as the Bible describes. It is a Bible, not a biology text book afterall. Church might get rather irrelevant if your pastor went on and on about cell division in the amoeba, even if God's intention was to turn it into a fish, then a reptile, and offshoot that into birds and mammals...

But that's where I stand to look at things. I like the Golden Rule and generally believe in policy's for the Greater Good.

That means something to me, but so what? Guess what? I'm actually most inclined to discuss it with you if I want to gather support for a political measure, party, or candidate. Otherwise, I'll take it up only when current events like Cloning come along - if it matters. Where's that baby, anyway?

Meanwhile, if Gungan Warrior was offended by something like JarJar's joke in that thread (eating brains etc.) I want to know about it. I saw both JarJar's and a few other posts (a minority) of them, that should be deleted, and then I would have let discussion continue.

I WAS LEARNING SOMETHING FROM THAT THREAD - such as what 7th Day Adventists believe in, and why. That was interesting to me, in spite of not being able to participate and getting into it late.

[James Boba Fettfield]

Just working with experience here, but most of our religion based threads end up very badly with a lot of hurt feelings and personal attacks. Don't ask about religion, don't tell anyone about your religion. Just avoid the topic, because time and time again we have proved that the topics just don't work. It's not just a problem here, but religion threads hardly work anywhere. Until we can all conduct ourselves in a civil manner regarding religion threads, they should no longer be mentioned.

I've seen a lot of good and bad political threads, but so far all of the religion threads just get worse and worse with each post in them. I've never had any good experiences discussing religion, unless I was with others who shared my beliefs. Honestly, religion threads provide hardly anything in the debate category other than to push some people's buttons. Religion is just too personal of a matter to be debated here. I'm not saying we can't say God or Jesus or anything that extreme. Just try to lay off the topics like, "When is the right day to worship?" I speak on my behalf only, but religion is just too personal of a matter to be discussed here.

[Tycho]

This is the "Which day is the Sabbath?" thread which is extremely inappropriate (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17152&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) and I'm glad it was closed. If it were not for using it as an example here, I'd say delete it.

First, the topic never should have been started: it is one thing to look for others of your own faith here, it is another to quiz a general population interested in Star Wars about something that matters to only a certain percentage of them - and of those, who would have different opinions of the answers (7th Day Adventists might differ from Eastern Orthodox or Muslim worshipers).

Ask a question like "how many days does it take to get from Hoth to Bespin without a hyperdrive?" on a Star Wars site. (I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing about a week).

Second, all the responses, while they made me laugh, were grossly inappropriate to respect someone's possible religious beliefs.

With that topic, I don't know if Gungan Warrior posted that purposely to draw negative attention and be an instigator while pretending to be totally pious and interested in his faith and sharing it's views. Like I said: start ONE thread about it - and share such trivia with those there because they are interested.

I was denied a chance to start multiple Star Trek or Smallville threads for different show seasons, and that's hardly offensive, so don't grumble about needing a different thread for every Testament.

But to the other posters in that thread, who comprise a large cross-section of this site's regulars: knock it off! Yeah, I laughed out loud. You WERE funny - but maybe not to everyone here who are looking for common bonds with other people like them who ARE also here.

I suggest the rest of you can have some sort of religious joke thread, "did you hear the one about the Nun, the Jew, and the Pagan at the all-you-can-eat-buffet?" and those of you who are sensitive about your faith should steer clear - you don't watch late night HBO for the same reason.

But leave people of faith alone to not be scared or put-off from finding other Star Wars fans here who are of similar backgrounds and familiar values!

Like I said, I am Agnostic - so why can I see this so objectively?

And I'll moderate it - so is there any reason why I'm stepping up to advise on policy and not taking responsibility for it?

- No for the second answer.

If Gungan Warrior is an instigator and cannot stick to one thread in which he seeks out Christian collectors, it will be dealt with. First by having threads deleted altogether to not breed religious intolerance here. (if it were up to me)

Second, if people post religiously intolerant jokes in a thread started by someone to be a fellowship thread - and they should try and keep those fellowship threads to one thread for their faith - even if it was started by someone else - then those forumites publishing their jokes in the wrong context will have them deleted and be sent warnings and further explanations, before possible suspensions might be needed, though I doubt it will because my friends here are all the jokesters we're talking about, and I know them to be a more intelligent and understanding lot than that.

Like I said, there was no one in "the right" at all in the Sabbath thread. Everyone knew it was not a Black Sabbath thread and posted anyway. The band could be discussed in its own thread, or as an offshoot in The Osbournes thread, as many there would be interested. I liked Ozzy and Deo both in those days - see I too know a lot about that band, but don't need to post my knowledge where someone wasn't asking about it.

[Beast]

Let's just remove the forums all together, since people arn't allowed to have different opinions here. If it hadn't been a couple of quasi-christian threads that this happened in, nobody would have batted an eye.

The world is turning into a PC hell, where people are so afraid to laugh at themselves or another, that they have to have fits over it. People b!tch a lot about tolerance, but it works both ways. If you want me to tolerate your beliefs, your gonna have to tolerate the fact that I may consider them funny. George Carlin, Robin Williams, Kevin Smith and many others do.

Just like If I start a thread on the movie Dogma, does this mean I'm being disrespectful to the religious folks. Hell no, it means that I can laugh at everyone. It's to bad that when the humor is directed at groups that seem to be backed by money, like the churches or similar organizations, it's a big no no.

If someone started up a thread that discussed one of the lesser well knows religions, it would be peachy most likely. But ones the cash and the big political backing sticks it's nose into life, humor is drained out of it. Hell, PC correct BS is so bad, that I know people that were afraid to laugh at movies like "Undercover Brother" because they thought because they were white, it would be racist. Same with stuff like Archie Bunker, laughing at stuff doesn't mean your intolerant. It means you are comfortable with something enough, to laugh about it.

Humor is the universal language. Pretty much everyone understands it. Once that starts to die out, and people start calling for the heads of folks that make political and religious jokes, then the world truely is going to hell. In my opinion, if your faith is so weak that you can't take a few jokes, then you need to worry more about what you believe in. Not the jokes about what you believe in. Sit back, relax, and watch Dogma. Laugh at yourselfs. Join in on the joke, empower yourselves.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[2-1B]

Tycho, when you say "extremely inappropriate" you make it sound like it's an offensive thing. :crazed:

Really, everybody needs to get past this "christian vs. the world" idea, because most people here don't seem to fall into an either/or category. Myself, I've got a Christian background but I don't freak out when people goof around about it.
What the hell do you expect when someone asks which day is the "correct" Sabbath ? Why can't such a question be lampooned? I'm opposed to personal attacks (guilty of them myself in the past :( ) but think about this - how can one expect to pose a direct religious question like that in cyberspace and NOT find some people who think the topic is silly ? Okay, maybe those people could just leave it alone, but if I find the topic of 'some Stormies not being clones' a joke, can't I still comment?

If you want to ban certain subjects entirely, that's fine.
But if you're gonna leave it open, then you have to allow for some people opining on how foolish it is, within reason.

Alright, stuff like the Black Sabbath comments are probably off topic - but they are certainly NOT offensive. Jeez, how many non-political/non-religious threads get off course? Several, and when that happens there are usually warnings to get it back on track.

That should be all that's required here, not "worrying" that someone was offended by mindless banter by the usual suspects (though I should note that our biggest suspect - Emperor Howdy - was not present during these threads of contention). :D



Binks, who are these loons that were afraid to laugh at Undercover Brother ? :rolleyes:
As for All in the Family, it was MEANT as a spoof of the very same people who took it seriously and were too ignorant to knwo they were the ones being parodied. :rolleyes:

[sith_killer_99]

I don't usually participate in religious threads. I have my beliefs and other people have theirs. I have read up on other religious beliefs and I find some of them interesting.

I participated in these particular threads with no malice what so ever, but a genuine curiosity.

I did mention my limited knowledge on the subject (Sevent-day Adventist) was from a class I took in college. The class happened to be on Cults and Sects in the United States. I believe the original poster may have taken offense, and I have apologized for any misunderstanding via PM.

It was not meant as a personal attack on that persons religion.

With that said, I have seen numerous threads on religion cause some serious problems on these boards. I do not believe they are in any way beneficial to these boards. I would have no problem with someone announcing they want to discuss a religious issue and then doing so via PM or even IM.

The biggest problem with posting threads about religion here is that most folks on these boards don't take themselves too seriously, they like to have fun. Which is why I keep coming back. But some people become too sensative about these "hot button" issues while others remain carefree (so to speak). This can lead to conflict.

I seem to remember a few religious threads a while back that literally caused some long time SSG members to leave the site all together.

That was unfortunate!:(

But I respect their decision.

In any event, I do not think that it is worth the trouble. I think we push the envelope just far enough with the political threads, but religion can go too far too quick.

[Rogue II]

I do my best to ignore the political and religious threads. They usually just tick me off. It is one thing to argue over movies and sports, but arguing over religion and politics is a whole different ballgame.

I don't care if there are political and religious threads. I choose to avoid them.

[Kidhuman]

Originally posted by EricRG
I have the opposite opinion of "religious threads". I put this in quotes because, in fact, these "discussions" are rarely actually discussions but are almost exclusively started by people who believe in some form of "Christianity", often in some sort of proselytizing vein. Others then join in, often in a mocking manner because the attitude of many of the Christian postings is often "holier-than-thou". Quite frankly, I'd be all for a REAL discussion of religion in a more all-encompassing sort of format. But these sort of threads simply don't exist. I would actually support banishment of religious topics on SSG.


Me being a Christain have found that comment insulting. I do not consider myself holier than thou. I support the ban on threads dealing with religion. It always turns into something negative. I read the entire Jesus Loves You thread. It started out inoccent and turned into 27 pages of arguing who is right and who is wrong. We come here to discuss SW collecting and various other forms of entertainment. Such threads could possibly drive walls between people that have different beliefs. The ban should stay.

As far as polotics, I don't find mtyself caught up in them much. I would not have much to say on that topic.

[Patient Zero]

I was raised Catholic, became athiest then found a middle ground through science and quantum physics which is more like Budhism than anything else, but is based more on my experiences and life findings.

I do not think that banning all religious threads would be appropriate. Sure heated discussions and the fleeting jokes break out over it, but the problem is not the discussion itself, but instead the eletist additude of certain individuals that believe that they are right at all costs and want to convert others to believe whatever it is that they believe without question. Unless we question things we are never going to evolve our ideas on them. If you did know and understand absolutely everything in the universe wouldn't you in some sense understand 'God's' will and isn't that huberous because you're just a human and can never understand it without becoming it?

So unless you are 'God', don't sit on your high horse and claim to spout the word of God. The Bible is not the word of God because it was written by men and further more changed by men over thousands of years. It is the same way with all religious doctrines.

The first step in understanding something is accepting that you don't know anything about it. Learn and evolve.

[EricRG]

Just so you know Kidhuman, I was raised Catholic myself. The biggest thing that irks me in Christianity (besides the lack of respect for women) is the constant attempts to CONVERT everyone they run into. As insulting as it may be to you, Christian religions are based upon the idea of conversion and not acceptance of others beliefs. Hence holier-than-thou.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by kidhuman
I read the entire Jesus Loves You thread. It started out inoccent and turned into 27 pages of arguing who is right and who is wrong.

The thread turned out that way because those with the strong Literalist beliefs chose to evade valid questions. If the purpose of the thread was to find new people to “save,” they would have been better off clearly articulating their point-of-view and backing up their claims with solid, logical, and well-grounded conclusions. If anyone felt “under attack,” it could have been avoided simply if the "tough" questions had just been answered honestly. Why? Because this is a "forum." That word implies discussion. So if one party simply tosses it's point-of-view out into public and refuses to support it with well-grounded and informed facts/opinions/(anything beyond just knee-jerk emotion), then it's not a forum anymore. It's a posterboard for whatever they are advertising.

Originally posted by Tycho
This is the closed Seventh Day Adventist thread (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17029) which I find NOTHING wrong with.

Originally posted by James Boba Fettfield
Just working with experience here, but most of our religion based threads end up very badly with a lot of hurt feelings and personal attacks.

Again, some questions were being asked with genuine curiosity and were not answered with anything beyond denial. Gungan could simply have said something to the effect that he didn’t want to discuss the religion and that would have been the end of it. Same goes for the Jesus Loves You thread. The participants claimed that they wanted to “answer” the questions but found it easier to stop when it got too difficult.

So what’s the cause of this?

Carl Marx’s words still hang heavy in the air: religion is the opiate of the masses. This is undoubtedly the “feeling” of many people in our society and if those that are “selling” their beliefs really want to get anywhere, it behooves their cause to answer questions fully and completely when asked. (We do that with TV sets, furniture, cars, etc. Why not religion, politics, and art?) But all too often, to do that might put said belief in a compromising and contradictory position thus reducing it’s validity. So, said parties may (or may not) recognize the quagmire they’ve stumbled into and simply refuse to answer the questions. Challenging one’s faith puts makes it susceptible to crumbling into pieces leaving the person without that “crutch” that they’ve relied on to help them exist. Not everyone welcomes that possibility so it’s just easier to evade, deny, or avoid the situation altogether.

For example, a fan favorite, JasonB, consistently insisted that Originally posted by Jason B
Everyone is out to completely dis-prove that God is real, and that He doesn't exist. BS. He is real, and He does exist. as illustrated in this post: http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=119849#post119849 . I don’t recall too many people trying to “disprove” the existence of God, as he liked to claim. Rather, what many of us did (do) is to ask for “proof” or something a little more concrete and convincing than his generic feelings of “His presence” or whatever. If he felt under attack, it was only because someone else was challenging his own “faith.” Something he clearly wasn’t interested in doing. But his willing participation in the discussion invited that possibility. What it comes down to is this: if you don’t want to talk about it, don’t even get started. But taking away everyone else’s ability to discuss issues deeper than, say, Hasbro’s Fan Choice Number (fill in the blank) would be unfortunate.

If someone has an opinion or wishes others to think the way they do, isn't it fair for we "consumers" to know why the "seller" himself bought into it? This very situation carries over easily when discussing Star Wars and/or the toys as well.

The UnLeashed Slave Leia (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=201372#post201372) thread is another good example, perhaps even better. This combined all the attributes of the Star Wars Toy site with all the valid questions regarding morality and religion. Again, evasion of some very basic questions at the start creates the situation where the thread begins to tread some questionable ground. Even worse, there was at least one primary misunderstanding (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=206575#post206575) due to lack of clarity. Accurate access to the motivations behind certain beliefs are crucial if others are to be convinced of that (whatever it is) point of view. All I wanted to know in that instance was why Eric felt the way he did and why it should justify his initial request to Hasbro. That query was never adequately answered as a significant contradiction was not resolved. Said participants simply refused to answer questions anymore. I was entirely ready to see it his way if a good argument was made and all my questions were answered, but it didn’t happen that way in that case.

So should this type of thread be dis-allowed? Maybe. If Eric was really genuine in his convictions, I’d suggest that something like the UnLeashed Leia thread request should instead have been a typed and well articulated letter mailed directly to the Hasbro offices themselves instead of quickly posted in this public forum.



Though raised Catholic myself, I’m not afraid to challenge my own faith and (much to my mother’s chagrin) am finding myself feeling a lot more like Ghost of Jonna describes (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=215106#post215106) . Part of that personal growth involves probing those that still hold strong convictions and searching for their own source of belief. Ironically, it’s those typical evasions and comments like JasonB’s (above) that drive me further away instead of invite me in.



Originally posted by Tycho
Stillakid almost hates the prequels. He agrees with me about a lot of religious and political issues, but we have had constant battles about his (stupid, intolerant, stubborn, prejudiced - just kidding) opinions about the newer SW films versus the Classic ones.

Hey! I AM intolerant and stubborn. :)

But I also believe that I’m very fair about it. The question “WHY?” is at the heart of it all. Any opinion I throw out into public has a laundry list of well-thought out and (as I see it) very valid reasons for existence. I don’t think that it’s unreasonable to ask that of everyone else whether the topic has to do with religion, politics, Star Wars, or anything else. Is that too much too ask for? If it is, then maybe there shouldn’t be a forum at all.

[Exhaust Port]

Assuming a religous thread would follow the rules of anyother threat (and why wouldn't it) there is no problem with the topic in my opinion. Now there's bound to be very heated discussions but that can be said for numerous other topics. Perhaps religous topics are treated more sensatively because of the attachment people have with their own personal beliefs.

Heated topics should be moderated no matter what the topic to avoid it becoming nothing more than name calling or flaming. But over the months that I've been visiting the boards I've found the topics quite entertaining and educational. Fear of a controversial topic isn't a good way to run these forums. Religous topics are very rare to begin with but I wouldn't mind seeing more for the only reason being to expand my own horizon.

The biggest problem arises when some posters can handle ideas/beliefs being challanged. They end up getting all bent out of shape or take different views as a personal attack. I say just post an "Enter at your own Risk" and let the threads flow.

[Kidhuman]

First of all, I too was raised Catholic. I renounced all my faith about 12 years ago. Then I became a Christian about a year and half ago. I do not tell anyone they are wrong for not believing what I believe. We have a thing called free will .If you would want to know I will be more than happy to help you in anyway I can. I do not condemn people to hell for not believing in God. I do not judge. I have plenty of friends that are atheist, wiccens(wicca) and various other religious denominations. I also do not think I am above any of them or any of you guys here for that matter. Everybody has different opinons and they will fight tooth and nail for them. IMO a thread like this can only lead to arguing.

[Patient Zero]

Originally posted by kidhuman
IMO a thread like this can only lead to arguing.

What is wrong with arguing and debating? Unless we all challenge what we think that we know is 'right' we will never figure out what actually is 'right' (if there is such a thing). Once it was believed that the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe, that the idea of harmful invisible germs in the air was ridiculous, that the surface of Mars meant that rivers existed and in turn Martians, that flying was just for birds, that existence consists of only 3 dimensions, etc. If it wasn't for those who challenged these ideas, we may still believe them. What is the point of all this if not evolution? To be better than we were and dream larger than we had in order to be even better still. All religions, all spiritual beliefs have somewhere in them, in their origins, the urge to evolve. This is done either through paths such as the enlightenment of existence and the Void as in Buddhism or morality and communal compassion as I believe Christianity did begin with (I know that I would get some arguments on this, but I believe that this religion was much different when it started then where it is now (People and the drive for the acquisition of power and control. What'cha gonna do!?!)) or the urge to achieve freedom from our own subconsciously conditioned restrictions as Satanism or the desire to prove things and gain knowledge through experimentation as in Science or the use of technology for evolution in itself as with Transhumanists and Extropians or etc. I could go on forever with this, but the point is that unless we strive to move forward we will merely grow blind within our own complacency.

[Kidhuman]

In the case of religion we will never know who is right or wrong.

[Patient Zero]

Originally posted by kidhuman
In the case of religion we will never know who is right or wrong.


Then why argue? Why care one way or the other? Why bother to believe anything at all? What is the point of wiping ones arse if you are just going to have to wipe it again later? :crazed: We are all striving for something more or else there would be no point in getting up in the morning. Sure things flat out suck at times, but you learn more from tripping than you do from just trudging along. You learn how to walk straighter. That is evolution; a painful birth from the death of outdated ideas for the transition to become more than we were. From the wheel to the buggy to the automobile to the plane to the space shuttle. After all, what is the point of carrying the canoe on your back after you have crossed the river. It merely becomes a hindrance to your travels towards the future destination.

A wise man once said that "Life is pain" and it is true, but not for the reasons that you probably think. Life is pain because life is experienced through one's senses and, in a way, all of the stimuli can be seen as an assault on the senses, thus pain. But without this assault or pain we could not experience life and therefore not learn, grow and evolve from it. What the hell is my point you ask!?! Without challenging what we believe we will not have conflict or pain and without that we will not have growth or evolution and without that we are not experiencing life. We are just sitting there with all sensation turned off and not living.

Although in my opinion you are right on one thing: Religion can not be proven. I was never talking about that. Religion means very little to me; it is just a hierarchy belief system run through power, guilt, ignorance, control and the need to belong. It is like trying to prove the government. To many people confuse religion and spirituality. The difference: spirituality has nothing to do with religion, but religion can not exist without spirituality. Why do people need a intermediary to dilute the interaction between them and their beliefs?

Now I know that I am beginning to ramble slightly off topic (like I always do), but that is only because I believe that absolutely everything is connected. So in actuality I am right on topic and that is really the point to this whole post. I believe that spirituality (the connection to something bigger than we are as individuals, our evolution) can someday be proven. I am searching for it through the understanding of science, psychology, logic, math, philosophy, physics; the understanding of why things are the way that they are. Sure it is not "God" in a conventional sense, but that is a good a word as any to describe the whole of existence...the non-locality of the space-time continuum...and what other form it may take when seen as One without a two. And that is why I like to argue about it and in doing so gain more clarity to my own theories. On spirituality or what others call religion. Nuff said!

[Tycho]

I've talked too much in this thread already so I want to be very brief - make 1 point, 1 thankyou, and 1 list.

Thanks first - to everyone continuing in a civil manner.

Point second: the "Recall the Slave Leia Unleashed" thread was the perfect point about why to continue to allow religious discussions. In that case it was incorrectly assumed that the religious values of EricG made him ask for the recall, but it was subsequently learned that it was his fears of others (parents') religious beliefs that prompted him to ask for Slave Leia being recalled, due to potential negative impacts on StarWars collecting.

I don't want to talk about Slave Leia again, just illustrate how religion would have to come up, with regards to morals about sexuality, and having sexuality displayed in our STAR WARS action figures. Religion, and further discussion of it, is entirely appropriate in this SW topic's context - as it would be on Republican (Pro-Life) versus Democrat (Pro-Choice) threads, and their subsequent positions on stem cell research, cloning - certainly familiar grounds for SW fans, and captial punishment, etc. (Even 'do unto others' threads about conduct in the toy isle).

Finally, The Scorecard: (please correct if I'm wrong):


(yes) Tycho - ALLOW P & R Threads

(yes/no) Eric - Allow Political.............................Don't allow Religious

(yes) QLD - ALLOW P & R Threads, but pretty indifferent to decision

(yes/no) JBFettfied - Allow Political....................Don't allow Religious

(yes) JarJarBinks - ALLOW P & R Threads

(n/a) Caesar - indifferent

(yes/no) SithKiller - Allow Poltical......................Don't allow Religious

(n/a) Rogue2 - indifferent

yes/no) Kidhuman - Allow Political......................Don't allow Religious

(yes) GhostJonna - ALLOW P & R Threads

(n/a) Stillakid - undecided

(yes) Exhaust Port - ALLOW P & R Threads


So far: 5 votes to allow all P & R topics.
...........4 votes to ban Religious topics.
...........3 abstentions at this time.

Did I get these right? Anyone can change or clarify their opinions.

Right now I don't see anyone against political topics, btw, however I personally see them as inevitably dragging them into religious issues on abortion, cloning, school choice, and alternative lifestyle rights, etc.

[Vortex]

Religion in the forums...resounding NO.

Politics in the forums...yes/fine...in moderation.

Religion is too personal for this site, and in all honesty shouldn't have a bearing on star wars related discussions, nor should it show up in topics. Granted, we do have a general area, but this is an open and public forum, save the religion, preaching, quoting for sundays, church, or some other religious forum. No one here wants to hear my views on religion and I don't want to hear theirs.

Not to be forgotten is the fact that religion itself is fragmented, and even getting two people of the same denomination to agree is nearly impossible these days unless they are of the same group/synod (?)/diocees/temple/mosque etc. There are too many off shoots of major religions, and even then the religious denominations pick and choose what items and ideals they will support.

I have other reasons why religion should be left out, but I know if I was to state them I'd start a forum feud.

Religion should be kept out of the public realm...and that includes SSG.


Politics - Another hot topic, but at least when discussing politics people will take time out to try and see the other side of the coin and rationalize...unlike some of the religious threads.

Politics is as diverse as religion, but at least you get people to see your side and take on political issues. People are more open to politics than religion.

If nothing more try putting a ban on religious threads and topics for 2 months and see how it goes.

[Jargo]

As a rule of thumb I go with the gentlemens credo of "never discuss religion or politics with friends" So you can count me as one vote against them. can't see any reason for a discussion devoted to religion or politics on a star wars collecting site. I've only ever posted in them to ruffle feathers. just plain ridiculous discussions. Faith in either a political party or 'deity' should be kept private. You don't run screaming out of the polling station on election day and tell everyone who you voted for unless you're an idiot.

here's an example. I went for an eye test yesterday and was examined by a really pleasant, chatty optician called Tim. Very thorough and professional. We chatted about various health issues and when i mentioned my back problems he told me quite calmly that he was a born again christian and performed a laying on of hands faith healing service. which instantaneously alienated me from him. I actually felt myself flinch and cringe as he spoke about it. Fine if that's what he gets off on but i don't want to know about it. That's what i find so damn annoyingabout religious people, they can't help but ram it all down your throat somehow. I don't care if you believe in a rat or a tin of fish paste, fine good for you just don't tell me abbout it and don't leave your religios piety lying around like so much litter.
Same with politics. It's like a war cry when someone starts up one of those. A call to take sides in a gang fight. Even the damn politicians can't fight cleanly and end up barracking each other half the time or there's a sleaze and smear campaign afoot. It's just not worth the hassle and grief. ban the bloody subjects. It's not taking away anyone's freedoms, this is a star wars site. You want religion go find a church site or set up your own message boards. You want ploitics go find some place that caters to that.

There's enough bones of contention surrounding star wars already without adding grist to the mill. I'm not saying ban any comments on religion or politics that crop up as part of a discourse but i'm saying threads dedicated to the subjects should go. Protracted discussion/debate/argument just ends up a shambles every damn time and it's a real pain. Let's stick to the hobby instead.

[kadamontaga]

Firstly, I haven't read many of the posts in this thread. I'm too lazy, so please accept my apologies if the discussion has moved on from the title of this thread to something else.
Secondly, I post in several different online forums and I like almost all of the more than SSG. Sad but true. This is mainly because I've more or less fallen out of love with the Saga line and don't really discuss, or pay a great deal of attention to it anymore. But one thing keeps me coming back to SSG, the one thing that a lot of other forums lack - Freedom of speech!! Normally, I don't participate in political or religious threads myself, but I always find them interesting, enlightening (and sometimes disturbing) to read. I think that if these sorts of topics were banned from SSG it would be a great loss.
Also, these issues are inextricably tied up in a lot of the other topics discussed on here. I can understand that people might not want threads with titles like "Muslims vs. Christians - who's right?", or "Are Democrats psycho or what?", but what about "Do you give money to the homeless", or discussions about racism. Banning discussion of religion and politics would inevitably lead to the end of most other controversial topics - and that should not happen.
That's my opinion.

[Beast]

I love when someone brings up freedom of speech. Just wanted to clarify somthing, before this becomes a rights issue. This is a message board on a website, that is owned and paid for by Sir Steve. He has the right to allow and disallow any subjects that he feels like. And I doubt it would cut down much on discussions if these two topics were banned. They only make up a miniscule ammount of the topics around here. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[SirSteve]

Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
What is wrong with arguing and debating?

It causes problems. I can simply remove all the categories not related to Star Wars but I don't want to do that and I am sure no one wants that. A LOT of Forums don't allow the talk of those 2 topics because of all the problems it causes.

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
I love when someone brings up freedom of speech. Just wanted to clarify somthing, before this becomes a rights issue. This is a message board on a website, that is owned and paid for by Sir Steve. He has the right to allow and disallow any subjects that he feels like.

This really sums it up...

[Jedi Clint]

Originally posted by EricRG
I don't advocate banishment of only "Christian" threads - but rather banishment of ALL religious threads. You've seen it here and in real life a million times...Christians love to proselytize. Those seem to be the only threads that show up here...people who feel some sort of need to convert people. SSG doesn't need it...it just gets people to poke fun at them.

I doubt any of them wanted to convert you Eric.

Count me as against both.

It wouldn't matter what an individual's motivation for starting a topic on this message board about religion is. They will end up being the target of an enormous amount of critisism for their beliefs (especially if they consider themselves Christian). There simply exists too much hatred toward the religious on this forum. Find a forum dedicated to discussing the dogma of your religion. That would be far more productive. I've thought of starting a topic on history and the religions before, but the level of maturity and respect shown by the vast majority of my fellow forumites is far too inadequate for me to expect any amount of meaningful exchange.

Originally posted by Tycho
These become political issues, because I assume there are people who are not rich, and won't benefit from Bush's tax cuts, or don't even make enough to pay taxes, who still vote Republican - and a lot of them cite religious reasons for it. While those reasons should not be infiltrating a secular government election system, there are religious people who do not think our government should be, or even is presently, secular. They cite "shall establish no official religion, or restrict the practice of anyone's freedom of religion," as meaning literally that, but would bind us to the 'majority religion's' values on abortion, alternative lifestyle rights, cloning, war, environmental endowment versus sanctity of non-human life, etc. etc.

My my. I'm not rich, and I WILL benefit from Bush's tax cut this year Tycho. There are VERY few people who I know that vote Republican for religious reasons! In fact, I know as many Democrats that vote their preference for religious reasons as I do Republicans. No matter the individuals reasons (be they religious or not) for voting their preference, I find it extremely arrogant for you to declare that they shouldn't be influencing a "secular" government. This government doesn't endorse religion, and it doesn't ban it's religious citizens from participating in the government either. This government is only as secular as the totality of it's citizens.

[Darth Trymybestus]

I kinda think that people should be allowed to discuss religion and politics, and here's why:

I saw a documentary called "Promises" by BZ Goldberg, it won loads of awards and was about Palestinian and Israeli children living in and around Jerusalem.
Even though it's a war zone and there is much hatred between the Palestinians and the Israeli's, these children ended up meeting each other and talking about things.
The Jewish children met with the Palestinian children and they became friends, they ended up realising that they were no different from each other, and they had the same hopes and dreams.
Now, people should talk, because that's the problem with the world, people don't talk and understand each other.
Before this program, the Palestinians thought that all Israeli's killed people and the Israeli's thought that all Palestinians were terrorists.
Because they met and spoke, it was a ray of light in solving this horrible conflict, it's the only way that conflict will be solved, through people listening to what each other has to say and understanding where they are coming from.

When people discuss politics and religion, there is a chance that they can somehow see each others point of view, it can be a big help and it can bring people of different beliefs and cultures together.

That's just an example of how discussion can be a positive thing, but I also agree that there is a time and a place for it too.

It is entirely up to SirSteve what he does as it's his site and if he decides to stop political and religious discussions I would understand as some people can abuse it.
I guess it's like anything really, there can be a good and bad side to it.

[Beast]

Darth T, I could understand that if this was the only site on the entire net with a discussion forums. But there are better places out there for to discuss religion and politics. There are many many forums especially dedicated to both. A place for everything, and everything in it's place.

Religion and politics invade a lot of things in this world, it doesn't need to be everywhere. It's Sir Steve's Guide to Star Wars. Not Sir Steve's Bible Study or Sir Steve's Politics Forum. You gotta draw the line somewhere. It was already drawn at sex, now time to redraw it past religion and politics.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[Darth Trymybestus]

I totally understand JJB and you are right, I guess most people come here for Star Wars related discussions (it's why I visit SSG:D).
What I meant was that religious and political discussion is something that needs to happen you know for there to be understanding.
I understand that maybe this isn't the right place, I was pointing out an example of the good that religious and political discussion can do. :)

[Lord Malakite]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
It's Sir Steve's Guide to Star Wars. Not Sir Steve's Bible Study or Sir Steve's Politics Forum.

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a site called SirSteve's Bible Study. :D ;)

[Jargo]

I've thought of starting a topic on history and the religions before, but the level of maturity and respect shown by the vast majority of my fellow forumites is far too inadequate for me to expect any amount of meaningful exchange.
OOOOOOOOOH get her! yeah well with an attitude of superiority like that no-one wants to start any kind of exchange. get off your pedestal for pities sake. And no that's not a personal attack just a candid observation. :happy: as per the argument for religious and political debate being off limit I suggest that history and the religions is rerally not a subject for discussion at a star wars fansite either. Jeez this isn't a university message board it's a fansite to discuss star wars movies and collectibles. There's a whole world out there full of beaky little websites devoted to the discussion and dismemberment of the mintiae of history and religion and science and biology and sex and conjoined foetuses and whatever else people want to talk about. Sure things are going to crop up in conversation here and the flow of the threads will then take the conversation elsewhere not dwell on it like a load of vultures picking each comment apart like their very existence depended on it.
This is not an academic site. you telling me you wanted to start a history thread when a whole load of thirteen year olds joined back in may 2002 on the back of the movie? that would have been such an excellent way to welcome them by completely alienating them with talk of stuff they have no clue about and then when they ask a question get sniffy and superior and call them philistines and have their posts deleted. (I'm not saying that's what you'd actually do just illustrating a point)

This is just a family graded site to talk fluff about stuff that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of life. Religion and politics and history dissection bores the flaming pants off me and I don't visit sites dedicated to the subjects because of that. I come here to talk silly science fiction and silly plastic toys. I don't want to have the two mashed up together, I don't want to walk into the general section and find six threads about the flaming sabbath and religion. Political discussions invariably end up being solely about democrats and republicans depite SSG being a global site that encompasses several continents in its membership but alienating anyone from overseas anyway with the same two factions banging heads time and time again.

What in the end is the point of political and religious debate? who wins? no-one. never have and never will just forward and back tug of war. fruitless and pointless. And not star wars.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by SirSteve
It causes problems. I can simply remove all the categories not related to Star Wars but I don't want to do that and I am sure no one wants that. A LOT of Forums don't allow the talk of those 2 topics because of all the problems it causes.


Should I bother finding the links to threads that are only about Star Wars yet inspire heated discussion and other unpleasantries?

ANY topic regarding ANYTHING can lead to disagreement. Heck, forget the religious threads, the political threads, and the movie threads. Just look at some of the discussions about Hasbro toys for pete's sake. TOYS! Who knew that these could cause such unrest amongst us peasants?

Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
can't see any reason for a discussion devoted to religion or politics on a star wars collecting site.

For the most part, I have to agree with EJ here. Anytime one of these threads pops up, I am curious as to it's purpose.

I don't mean to belittle anyone by the following, but I did get a slight chuckle now and again from the Christian Collector's Club thread. I don't see any practicality in having a collector's club of any kind that isn't centered solely around geography. Some posts went something like this:

The word of God has really worked wonders in my life. I witnessed his presence in others. (etc etc)

And I found a couple FX-7's at Walmart yesterday. Happy hunting. :)

Okayyy. Interesting. I can kind of see their need to congregate in one spot to prop up their belief system (and avoid being questioned at length with tough questions they'd rather not deal with), but the segues to the collecting aspects of the club were kinda rough. Even Mamet would have had trouble with that one.


But when it comes down to it, no, there doesn't seem to be much point in discussing politics or religion at SirSteve's Star Wars Guide: A Service of Action On-Line.

On the other hand, there isn't much point in disallowing it either, unless the goal is to create a squeaky clean homogenized environment where everybody can feel all cuddly good about themselves every time they log on. Yeah, this hobby is supposed to be fun and it would be super-cool if it was fun all the time. But the fact is that everybody has an opinion about something and some people feel more strongly about some things than others do. And what's worse (or better...or just fine) is that often times these opinions are diametrically in opposition to one another. But hearing varying viewpoints is what helps us grow as human beings. I well aware that some people would just as soon not be challenged and be forced to actually THINK with the risk of having their safe little fantasy world come crashing down around them, but my own opinion is that is would be unfortunate to cut off any medium that encourages an open and informative dialogue.

And I'm not even talking about politics or religion here. Take another peek at the toy and movie threads. There will ALWAYS be somebody claiming to be "hurt" or "insulted" by any given topic or opposing viewpoint. You can't please everybody all the time. It just isn't going to happen. So what's the solution to this:Originally posted by SirSteve
It causes problems. I can simply remove all the categories not related to Star Wars but I don't want to do that and I am sure no one wants that. A LOT of Forums don't allow the talk of those 2 topics because of all the problems it causes.


Cancel ALL the threads that just might mean that two people will disagree with one another? I'm not saying it isn't possible, but if you'd like a forum with threads that get closed after two posts (the first with an opinion and the second in opposition) then so be it.



POST ONE: The new TIE BOMBER rerelease is so cool!

POST TWO: Are you kidding? How can you say tha...

Thread Closed

:dead:

[Beast]

Of course Stillakid doesn't consider the fact that very few people are willing to actually get into a real fight over Star Wars. Where as things like religion and politics have been responsible for centuries for causing fights, wars, and bloodshed. I doubt there is as many deaths attributed to Star Wars.

I doubt anyone here, no matter how much we may debate about Star Wars is willing to go to that extreme. Religion and Politics have been the cause of some of the most bloody wars in history. Hell, our own country (for those of us in the US) was founded on the fact we didn't agree with the religious persecution and political system in place at the time. We didn't start a war over entertainment and little plastic toys. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[Jedi Clint]

Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
OOOOOOOOOH get her! yeah well with an attitude of superiority like that no-one wants to start any kind of exchange. get off your pedestal for pities sake. And no that's not a personal attack just a candid observation. :happy: as per the argument for religious and political debate being off limit I suggest that history and the religions is rerally not a subject for discussion at a star wars fansite either. Jeez this isn't a university message board it's a fansite to discuss star wars movies and collectibles. There's a whole world out there full of beaky little websites devoted to the discussion and dismemberment of the mintiae of history and religion and science and biology and sex and conjoined foetuses and whatever else people want to talk about. Sure things are going to crop up in conversation here and the flow of the threads will then take the conversation elsewhere not dwell on it like a load of vultures picking each comment apart like their very existence depended on it.
This is not an academic site. you telling me you wanted to start a history thread when a whole load of thirteen year olds joined back in may 2002 on the back of the movie? that would have been such an excellent way to welcome them by completely alienating them with talk of stuff they have no clue about and then when they ask a question get sniffy and superior and call them philistines and have their posts deleted. (I'm not saying that's what you'd actually do just illustrating a point)

This is just a family graded site to talk fluff about stuff that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of life. Religion and politics and history dissection bores the flaming pants off me and I don't visit sites dedicated to the subjects because of that. I come here to talk silly science fiction and silly plastic toys. I don't want to have the two mashed up together, I don't want to walk into the general section and find six threads about the flaming sabbath and religion. Political discussions invariably end up being solely about democrats and republicans depite SSG being a global site that encompasses several continents in its membership but alienating anyone from overseas anyway with the same two factions banging heads time and time again.

What in the end is the point of political and religious debate? who wins? no-one. never have and never will just forward and back tug of war. fruitless and pointless. And not star wars.


I am not in disagreement with your comments, but this pedestal is all warm and soft and sweet smelling.......I'm stayin' ;)

[Vortex]

Originally posted by Darth Trymybestus
I kinda think that people should be allowed to discuss religion and politics, and here's why:

I saw a documentary called "Promises" by BZ Goldberg, it won loads of awards and was about Palestinian and Israeli children living in and around Jerusalem.
Even though it's a war zone and there is much hatred between the Palestinians and the Israeli's, these children ended up meeting each other and talking about things.
The Jewish children met with the Palestinian children and they became friends, they ended up realising that they were no different from each other, and they had the same hopes and dreams.
Now, people should talk, because that's the problem with the world, people don't talk and understand each other.
Before this program, the Palestinians thought that all Israeli's killed people and the Israeli's thought that all Palestinians were terrorists.
Because they met and spoke, it was a ray of light in solving this horrible conflict, it's the only way that conflict will be solved, through people listening to what each other has to say and understanding where they are coming from.


Not to poopoo on your program, but I seen a similar one on the public access chanel (ch. 2 in MN) where they did a similar thing. They took 5 Israeli kids to interact with 5 Palestinians as young childrend, ages 5 or 8, and it was both boys and girls. I can't remember all the fine details. Then a few years later when they were 15-18 they re-interviewed all the kids and sadly the hatred remained the same. All the kids hated the other side for that the others were doing to their people. The Palestinian boys said they would be a bomber if they were asked, and had no quams about killing their Israelite friends if the time ever came or if they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm guessing we seen two differnt programs, but there's little solution at this time in civilization especially when you're constantly force fed hatreds of old. Heck my grandparents still harbor grudges against people of certain nationalities and religious backgrounds, even though they have little to no interaction with them. Anyways...it just show that talking doesn't always solve problems. Sometimes talk is just talk. You need to act on it to do anything and change things.

Disclaimer: This next part is just a general statement and not in any way directed at anyone...just my general idea and thought.

In my small opinion the only way I feel to rectify the religious divides is to have everyone step outside ones religious belief system and look at it for what it is. Research why and how doctrines and holidays came to be, compare and contrast others beliefs, stories, and history with yours and above all, research this OUTSIDE of your chosen denomination.

Act like you're a 3rd party studying it. Don't take what your religious leader says to be final and true. Time, power, and political reasons have distort the true definitons and meanings for some celebrations and accepted habits and you'll quickly find out that some religious dates, and doctrines have political and social connotations to them which run contrary to what a religious organization teaches. Once the selected religion has been studied, and critical thinking put to work, then can one have a civilized, educated conversation about religion. But sadly no one asks questions because most times we're taught not to, and when we do we get this mumbo jumbo spiritual answer to cover the fact that even they don't truely know or understand why. When you do ask questions to an inside source like the religious leader, the answer you get is from a heavily biased source and even then they don't know the true reasons, only what they were taught from other individuals within that organization. They just keep adding layers upon layers and slowly the real reasons and meanings are forgotten and covered up. No one in power in a religious organization is going to speak badly or admit problems or guilt for wrong doings...sometimes the truth hurts. Its best to look and learn outside the system.

But that's just my utopia and hope.

[QLD]

I like how this thread has basically become an argument as well.

:eek:

[Beast]

You consider this to really be an argument? Maybe in the most vanilla respects. So far it's been kept pretty respectable and light. In comparison to how most religion and politics threads usually go, by now. Not to mention that technically, this thread actually breaks the 72 hour ban. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[QLD]

yeah, but you guys are arguing about arguing.....where does it end....:sur:

[JesusFreak]

Matthew 28:18-20

Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given complete authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

That was the purpose of the Jesus Loves You thread. I'm sorry for the way it turned out, but that is the main reason I posted it, not so some war would break out.

My opinion on this banning issue is that there shouldn't be a ban on a certain type of thread. I think that if a thread on religion (or anything else for that matter) results in the flaming of other members, it should be closed. But I also think it's possible (though unlikely) that there could be a discussion on religion that didn't lead to flaming of other members, and therefore that topic shouldn't be closed. So I say don't put a ban on all topics of a certain kind (like religion), watch those topics, and if they get too bad, close them.

[2-1B]

Originally posted by Jedi Clint
I doubt any of them wanted to convert you Eric.


Not true with the 'Jesus Loves You' thread, see above. :D

[James Boba Fettfield]

I know I said we can do without the religion threads, which I still firmly believe. It's not that I don't follow any religion, it's that time and time again the threads just turn into garbage. How many actually end up being normal discussions? I think it's great you started a collector's thread that was brought together by your beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that in my eyes. My problem with any of those threads are the people who knowingly enter them so they can lay down their beliefs on the table to challenge others'. If you enjoy doing that, great. I don't think it's a smart thing to do, because you know exactly what is going to happen by doing those actions. A lot of the problems that arise from relgion threads could be averted had some people just left them alone. If JesusFreak wants to make a thread regarding Jesus Loving You and such, super, but why would someone who does not prescribe to that belief feel the need to come in and challenge it? I'm not saying that ever happened, because I never read thread. Why didn't I read it? Because I knew there's a chance something would be said in it to push my buttons. You know how we have the Ignore button to block certain users replies, well pretend you have an Ignore button to block certain topics you don't want to see. I've started the practice recently myself, and I must say it works wonders. I know this is a forum for open debate, but we all know damn well that certain things we say are going to evoke certain responses from people. If you truely want to question these religions, find a forum strictly devoted to it and ask it there. Let's try to keep ours from degrading into a everyone hates everyone situation over certain threads.

[Beast]

True, but even the title of the thread "Jesus Loves You" could be considered being intolerant to others beliefs. What about religions and people that don't believe in Jesus. Saying "Jesus Loves You" also calls into play, that if you don't let him "love you" your doomed to so-called hell.

It would be the same as if you said "Budda Loves You" or "The Goddess Loves You". All it does is push peoples buttons. Not for what is said, but the beliefs behind what is said. And that makes them want to speak up, and dispute those beliefs. And it turns into a huge clusterfudge. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[JesusFreak]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
True, but even the title of the thread "Jesus Loves You" could be considered being intolerant to others beliefs. What about religions and people that don't believe in Jesus. Saying "Jesus Loves You" also calls into play, that if you don't let him "love you" your doomed to so-called hell.

If saying "Jesus Loves You" is against the rules, then stating your religious beliefs must be. Me saying that Jesus loves you is just me stating my belief, the same as if someone said "I believe that Allah is the true god. " It's just someone stating their belief, and I don't believe there's anything wrong with that, as long as it doesn't result in fighting/flaming.

[Kidhuman]

I really feel that a religious discussion will always end is disagreement or arguing. There are other places on the web for discussing religion. We are here for SW toys and things of SW nature. Because there are so many different religions represented in these forum, I don't think it would be a feasable to discuss religion.

Polotics is usually 2 choices. Yes or no. Religon is always being tested through-out years and outrages some people which will lead to insulting someone intentional or not.

[Jargo]

Oh man this is a good thread. I'm sorry if I sounded belligerent JediClint, I posted that last post of mine very late last night. Just a wee bit tired I was and your comment momentarily ired me :)

Okay really I think discussion of these issues is fine in passing, it's going to come up as illustration of a point all over the place. The problem lies in the in depth analysis type threads where one faction pits themselves against another. Say jewish people against Christians, or catholics against Protestants etc. That's generally going to descend into some kind of fisticuffs where unpleasantries will pass back and forth eventually when all other arguments have failed. Most people don't have the level of higher learning on these subjects to have a real philosophical debate. how many of us have studied theology? Once one person digs their feet in on their POV then things start to spiral out of control and unless checked somehow you've got chaos within five minutes.
The best thing really is an unwritten code for conduct. To avoid these subjects as a protracted discussion and to just allow for casual comment to pass normally in conversation. As i said above earlier, this is after all a global site encompassing many different peoples with many different belief systems. It seems to me that Christianity is the hot potato not just religion. That's one religion only out of who knows how many in place in the world today. If all those other religions that people follow daily can be kept peaceful and not allowed by the followers to interfere with daily life then why is it that we're seeing so many threads devoted to just this one? And why is it that they always go bad. Because those who don't follow Christianity are being told they're wrong not to. No matter what the religious discussion it's always going to have some comment that God is right and that's the only answer. But that's totally alienating so many people, no wonder theres a backlash. That's saying to all non Christians that they aren't any good, that's belittling their beliefs without even trying. Might just as well call non Christians heathen devils and be done with it.

Now, as i said i really don't want to have to hear born again Christians bang on about how good God is and what a wonderful experience the faith healing they do is. Or relating everything back to their deity as if somehow the reason they just had a good fart was because it was Gods will. That's just not the sort of thing i come here for. But, i can tolerate a passing comment occasionally thrown into a conversation, i can simply choose to ignore it and just read the rest of the post. that's the nature of conversation and anyone with any nouse would realise their comment was ignored and think to themselves that they probably should avoid making comments of that nature in future. If someone responds to it a couple of posts later that too could be ignored, just two people in a group having a side chat. But if that religious discussion gets in the way of the thread subject then it has to be stopped. And the same with Politics. In the fan's choice poll threads there's a few political jokes relating to poll counts and ballot stuffing. That's fine as it stayed as just that, a few comments but it didn't interupt or interfere with the thread or get out of hand. That's how it should be. Passing comments not full on devoted threads. I'm sure i have a lot of friends here with views very different to my own. The reason we're still friends is because we don't constantly bang on about our beliefs on religion and politics. We're aware that we're very different in our views and that tells us not to delve too deeply. I want my friends to stay friends. So we have an unwritten code of practice not to discuss contentious issues that will result in us fighting.
As far as arguments over toys go, they aren't real arguments. It's mock conviction, imitation debate. it doesn't mean anything and i seriously hope that no-one takes toys that seriously that they go away from here with ill feeling for people after a heated exchange about gimmicks and articulation on a flaming toy. If that was the case then it's perhaps time to check your head. For example, Jar Jar Binks and i as has been stated are almost completely opposed on many issues regarding toys but it isn't serious. not worthy of getting angry about. Sure the words written can seem harsh but it's a game. We actually get along pretty well. The problem that i see with religious and political threads is that it's personal - too personal. if you attack a religion you attack the person following it, attack a political party and you atack those who subsribe to that party's policies. Doesn't matter what you say, it's a personal attack.
With toys in debate it's like a sidestep, things under attack are ideas and concepts not a persons choices in life. The only subject close to being personal is the carded v opened one. but even then it's trivial and pale as far as debate/argument goes. I just really feel that devoted discussion of such weighty issues as religion and politics is far beyond the realms that this site should be concerned with. If this place is truly a global melting pot then those discussions are inappropriate and alienating. and for that reason alone they shouldn't happen. So in short :D passing comment fine, devoted debate bad.
I wouldn't say a constitutional ban was needed but just a sort of gentleman's agreement to not go there. I certainly don't want to see a happy happy shiny shiny homogenous community but I certainly don't want to see a warring community either.

[Darth Trymybestus]

The fact is that even if you ban political and religious discusion threads, they will still come up in conversation in other threads. Why? Because they're a part of everyday life and here's an example, if you have a discussion about Cloning, some people will bring Religion into that discussion.
Personally, I only really use the Star Wars threads on SSG and if there is a religious thread and I don't want to be a part of it, I don't click on it, it's simple as that.
People who don't want to talk about religion don't have to talk about it but I think when you have a General Discussion section, you are always going to have religion and politics creeping into discussions.

[kadamontaga]

Again, I haven't read most of the posts in this thread, so forgive me if the discussion has moved on from what I am about to say.
I'd like to briefly address JarJarBinks's comment that was posted in response to my mention of "freedom of speech" on this forum.
To quote JJB:
I love when someone brings up freedom of speech. Just wanted to clarify somthing, before this becomes a rights issue. This is a message board on a website, that is owned and paid for by Sir Steve. He has the right to allow and disallow any subjects that he feels like. And I doubt it would cut down much on discussions if these two topics were banned. They only make up a miniscule ammount of the topics around here.
JJB, I'm not saying that to disallow the discussion of religion and politics would be to deny members of this site of a fundamental right. I am well aware that this site is owned by an individual, and that he quite rightly has the authority and ability to allow or disallow discussion of certain topics.
What I was saying was that one of the things I like about this forum is the relative freedom of speech regarding the discussion of politics and religion on this particular forum, compared to others that I frequent. I think that this view was quite clearly, if only implicitly stated in my post, and that you deliberately glossed over my post in order to call attention to a quote that you could easily undermine. I encourage you to re-read my initial response to this thread.

[Beast]

I wasn't responding to your post, just the "Freedom of Speech" angle. Because I knew as soon as someone mentioned it, which you did. That this would turn into discussion about that. And I was circumventing any argument about FoS that would follow. Because FoS doesn't have it's place here, this is Sir Steve's owned and operated forums. So he is the lawgiver. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[Dar' Argol]

WOW! That's a lot of reading!:D

First thing, QLD . . . . I would never close WM threads. That would just be arrogant of me:D.

Now about this whole Religion/Political thingy. I say get rid of them. We have lost members over this, friends have seaperated, and people have been banned over these types of "discussion". They do this site no good. What's the name of this place again???? Oh yeah, Sir Steve's Guide to STAR WARS. I almost forgot.;).

See, I'm a Catholic not by choice. I was forced in before I could make my own choices. To me they kinda feel like the Borg . . . "RESITANCE IS FUTILE, YOU WILL BE CONVERTED!!" Now I'm kinda religionless. I subscribe to no political party because none of them intrest me or stir me enough to back them. BUT, I have to look into each of these threads because I moderate them. Now granted, sometimes I do not catch them until late in the game (sorry), but I still have to look and read them. And everyone I have read always ends up badly. In the religious threads it always ends with the Bible Literalists beating "the good book" over someone else's head who isn't, or someone challanging the literalist POV and it ends up in Bible quotes for 3 pages. And in the political threads it always ends up . . . . . .well, . . . . . . kinda like the government, no one getting along. Does this help this site??? NO! Does is promote the online friendships . . . NO! What it does is drives a wedge right down the heart of this community! Its a cancer in this "body" that is slowing eating it.

And understanding why or why not someone likes a figure has nothing to do with religion or politics . . . . .unless your talking about the "Buddy Christ" figure:D. And debates over figures is part of this site. Its a SW site, dedicated to the discussion and debate over all things SW. If this was SirSteve Bible Study forum, do you really think the majority of us would be here?? I know I wouldn't. So lets keep it about what this site is about. If you really need a place to debate over issues like that, maybe a Debate Forum would not be such a bad idea. At least then you could not complain about getting beat down in a debate there cause that's what you came in for. And those who do not want to participate in that kind of discussion would never know about it cause its in a Debate Forum, not out in a General Forum for everyone to see.

[kadamontaga]

JarJarBinks,
Thanks for clearing that up. Please accept my apologies if my response was unnecessarily harsh, but I think that you could have expressed your first post a little clearer.
:)

[Jedi Clint]

Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
Oh man this is a good thread. I'm sorry if I sounded belligerent JediClint, I posted that last post of mine very late last night. Just a wee bit tired I was and your comment momentarily ired me :)

No offense taken Jargo.

[JediTricks]

I've spent the past few hours of my life reading this thread. I've read a lot of interesting posts and plenty that have veered off-topic; there have been plenty of good comments I don't need to reiterate, though I am adding a few of my own comments and replies as well even though almost every angle of them has been covered by others already. Soon, the 72-hour ban will lift and then it'll be my job to see how the forum users react in the short- and long-run and help decide whether or not to make the ban on threads about religion permanent. The issue of political threads is not directly involved in that, though certainly it does have some affect since these 2 are "hot button" issues around here.

---

"Assuming a religous thread would follow the rules of any other thread (and why wouldn't it) there is no problem with the topic in my opinion."
This is an interesting point because in theory it makes sense to me, however in practice these "hot button" topics spin out of control so quickly sometimes that there's just not enough time for a moderator to stop the situation from getting out of hand before the thread explodes into a chain reaction. That's the problem I think, these threads don't act like other threads so it is much more difficult to treat them like other threads - the mod staff doesn't get paid or compensated for what they do, so obviously they can't be expected to be watching everything that happens at all times.

---

"There's enough bones of contention surrounding star wars already without adding grist to the mill. I'm not saying ban any comments on religion or politics that crop up as part of a discourse but i'm saying threads dedicated to the subjects should go. Protracted discussion/debate/argument just ends up a shambles every damn time and it's a real pain. Let's stick to the hobby instead."
That is how I feel on this subject too.

---

"Should I bother finding the links to threads that are only about Star Wars yet inspire heated discussion and other unpleasantries? ANY topic regarding ANYTHING can lead to disagreement. Heck, forget the religious threads, the political threads, and the movie threads. Just look at some of the discussions about Hasbro toys for pete's sake."
True, any topic CAN lead to a disagreement and in general this is something the staff accepts. The difference between said other topics and these religious/political hot button topics is mainly the frequency in which they go bad and the level of pain they cause once they do; people seem to invest way more of themselves into these hot button topics, when they get hurt in these discussions, it carries over more than if someone told them Sith Training Maul is garbage or some such. It seems to be taken as the difference between telling someone their t-shirt is junk and telling someone their mother is trash. Despite what some may suggest, that level of cleanup is NOT the job most of the mods have signed on for, and it's not as easy as simply taking on new mods - there's plenty to consider when picking mods for just the Star Tours forum.

---

"My opinion on this banning issue is that there shouldn't be a ban on a certain type of thread. I think that if a thread on religion (or anything else for that matter) results in the flaming of other members, it should be closed. But I also think it's possible (though unlikely) that there could be a discussion on religion that didn't lead to flaming of other members, and therefore that topic shouldn't be closed. So I say don't put a ban on all topics of a certain kind (like religion), watch those topics, and if they get too bad, close them."
There's a possibility that a thread about human sexuality won't degrade into inappropriate and even obscene comments, but it's very likely they will and thus are banned topics. If the likelihood of a religious or political thread is very high that they will degrade beyond, I don't see how that should be treated differently.

---


Ultimately, this situation hasn't come about because SirSteve or I are personally discomforted by these discussions - Steve seems to let things roll off him like water off a duck's back and in person I could discuss many of these topics until I'm blue in the face without feeling suckerpunched. This situation is at hand because of the growing problems that have come up on these threads time and time again from all sorts of forum users and readers. Many people are getting angry and frustrated and insulted and hurt by these discussions no matter what side of them they are on - and over a topic on a message forum about Star Wars and its merchandising??? After a while, that stuff starts to taint so much around it because these "hot button" issues are far too often too close and personal to the forum users. So how we as a group deal with it is at the heart of the issue, this means the group is almost certainly going to be the deciding factor.

[Tycho]

OK, I'm going to add a bit again. First, realizing that this is SirSteve's site, and having been informed that JediTricks is going to make the final call on this issue, I'm updating the scorecard again. The "scorecard," as I'm dubbing it, will not 'decide the issue,' Steve or his appointed representative will. The scorecard just might be of some help to see where we all stand with these sometimes detailed explanations.

Note it in this thread if your position is incorrectly registered, or you wish to even totally change it. That's ok.

(yes) Tycho - ALLOW P & R Threads

(yes/no) Eric - Allow Political.............................Don't allow Religious

(yes) QLD - ALLOW P & R Threads, but pretty indifferent to decision

(yes/no) JBFettfied - Allow Political....................Don't allow Religious

(n/a) Caesar - indifferent

(yes/no) SithKiller - Allow Poltical......................Don't allow Religious

(n/a) Rogue2 - indifferent

yes/no) Kidhuman - Allow Political......................Don't allow Religious

(yes) GhostJonna - ALLOW P & R Threads

(n/a) Stillakid - undecided

(yes) Exhaust Port - ALLOW P & R Threads

(yes/no) Tjvonovich -Allow Political....................Don't allow Religious

(no) Emperor Jargo - DO NOT ALLOW either topic

(yes) Kadamontaga - ALLOW P & R Threads

(no) JediClint - DO NOT ALLOW either topic

(yes) DarthTrymybestus - ALLOW P & R Threads

(no) JarJar Binks - DO NOT ALLOW either topic (changed position)

(yes) JesusFreak - ALLOW P & R Threads

(no) Dar Argol - DO NOT ALLOW either topic


So far: 7 votes to allow all P & R topics.
...........9 votes to ban Religious topics (includes votes below)
...........4 votes to ban both Political and Religious topics.
...........3 abstentions at this time.

Right now, a majority of those posting want to ban religious topics.

If your position is misrepresented, I appologize, post your vote again, clearly - or post if you've changed your mind. At the next update of the scorecard, it will be corrected.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, I want to address what JEDICLINT and JESUSFREAK posted.

JediClint posted: No matter the individuals reasons (be they religious or not) for voting their preference, I find it extremely arrogant for you to declare that they shouldn't be influencing a "secular" government. This government doesn't endorse religion, and it doesn't ban it's religious citizens from participating in the government either. This government is only as secular as the totality of it's citizens.

That is very true. I find no fault with JediClint's very logical argument. However, I will continue to arrogantly assert that the sooner we Americans as a nation stop trying to vote our different groups' religious agendas - like the anti-abortion agenda - into law that effects ALL Americans, the better off we'll be. That is I value a more secular America, in response to JediClint's statements that the government is only as secular as it's citizens...

AND I AM GUILTY OF GETTING INTO A POLITICAL DEBATE WITH JC RIGHT NOW! This thread is about whether we can discuss these things, not whether America should be secular or not. We got off the subject because I'd brought up the fact that I thought you couldn't ban religious discussion, but not political discussion, because so many Americans vote according to their religious values. I still DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD BAN EITHER discussion, I just don't think you can really separate the topics that easily.


Now to JESUSFREAK, I just wanted to make a point as to why or how a religious thread's title might be perceived as inflammatory and inspire such bad reactions:

I guess it's part of the maturity problem around here, JesusFreak: I KNEW that "Jesus Loves You" thread title was going to lead to trouble even before I read or participated in it.

You are Christian, right? Have you ever had Mormons or Jehova's Witnesses knock on your door? How did you feel about spending time with them? Could it ever have happened at an inconvenient time when you didn't have patience with them?

(maybe you had a plumbing emergency, opened the door, hoping it was your immediate savior - the Roter-Rooter Guy - but it was THEM! - and now you're trapped and you've already been wondering, 'If God really loves you, then why did he let your toilet get clogged up that way when you had to go to work or school that morning?' But now the Jehova's Witnesses are in your doorway, and they're insistant that you prove yourself a Christian, or they can't leave you alone!)

Then, later, you log on to your favorite internet site - SSG - to learn if anyone's said whether for $4.99 you can find a tiny bit of happiness at your local Target - and "The Mormons Need You Now" thread hits you right in your face!

You might love Jesus, they might love Jesus, but right now, you've had enough of alternate-love-styles-with-Jesus and could just use a little bit of Padme Amidala over at Wal*Mart near your area - but you're confronted by their ministerings all over again - where you didn't come to see it.

That's one scenerio, where you might get mad, post a statement, and then attract everyone else with an attitude that day, and off it goes. It's like Emperor Jargo reviewing an action figure ;)

In the next scenerio, you KNOW that someone who's aggravated will stumble upon that thread and get all pinched about it, so you innocently post it and your Bible quote, just waiting for the fun to start. It's an instigation and if you're honest with yourself - you KNOW that! But it's fun to cause trouble - get negative attention. I enjoyed my Satanist thread - remember? :D I knew referring to it would one day become useful.

But meanwhile, why wouldn't Christians want to make friends with other Christians who also like Star Wars? I suppose you could start a SW thread on your church's website, but that hardly gives you the broader spectrum of SW fandom, nor the access to international information about release dates, foreign trades, etc.

So I'd support there being a Christian thread, even a new Satanist thread, but leaving it at that - and like others have said, non-believers minding their own business - can browse these forum thread titles not being disturbed by inflammatory thread names like "Buddha's Commands For You!" or whatever.

It does come down to a personal attack on an individual when they can easily perceive you believe they will be sent to hell for being just who they are, because they don't subscribe to your beliefs.

When I've gone out downtown to check out the girls at a nightclub and have had to wait in line to have my ID checked and pay my cover-charge, I am most likely there because I am lonely and don't feel I have a strong enough relationship situation, or uh...other satisfactions in my life, and I'm going there to try and take up the 50% of the action I can take to gain control over that situation (the rest is up to the girls of course). And while I'm standing there waiting (who enjoy's lines anyway?) and not feeling very well in the first place - I have people waving signs in my face and preachers telling me (maybe not directly) that I should feel worse! That I'm a sinner, or plotting sin, etc. etc. like staying at home and reading a Bible is going to make me feel better. If I get that idea, I'd look for opportunities to find what I'm looking for at a church. But I don't think I'm evil. I certainly don't want to feel like crud. If per chance I do meet a girl and things go far, whether they happen fast or not, I may meet someone I can have a relationship with, and possibly even "deliverance from sin with" (read 'making love within the context of marriage' by pure, non-hypocritical Chrsitians), and I'll be one further step away from sin altogether. I realize some of what a missionary wants me to do is to accept Christ as my personal savior, etc. etc. - but I'm NOT going to be receptive to that message from some guy who's out there, in my face with their religion, that is making me feel worse when I already feel like crud! (I do not enjoy wasting my time dancing or drinking for their own sake. When I'm seeing a girl, I'd much rather take her to a movie, a museum, for a horse N carriage ride - these kinds of things at night - or take art, writing, or cooking classes with her - or go to the gym with her. When I'm single, if I feel content and don't 'need' a girl around, I'm content to be here online, building displays for my SW figures, hanging out with pals, etc. I don't go to clubs to stay there any longer than I have to - and I'd be a hypocrit going to a church to find what I'm looking for! - but I am NOT looking for a preacher to tell me what THEY think of my life - I'm already not giving myself a very good evaluation when I'm in that kind of mood).

Does that explain anything to the religious here as to why the titles of their threads, like "Jesus Loves You," might be taken as inflammatory? The title "Bible Discussion Thread - all are welcome" or something like the "Christian Collectors' Club" are totally self-explanatory and possibly a whole lot less offensive. I know what the thread's for, and I'll go there only if I want to read a lot of messages like "Jesus Loves You," etc.

Again, I support the Christians and every other group that wants a thread having ONE main thread, where they can invite poeple over to, or hold ongoing discussions or fellowship within. Tell what the thread is, but don't use the subject to send a message to everyone else that may not want to hear it.

Is how I make that disinction clear for anyone still confused?

I'd like to hear what you all think.

[Jedi Clint]

Originally posted by Tycho
That is very true. I find no fault with JediClint's very logical argument. However, I will continue to arrogantly assert that the sooner we Americans as a nation stop trying to vote our different groups' religious agendas - like the anti-abortion agenda - into law that effects ALL Americans, the better off we'll be. That is I value a more secular America, in response to JediClint's statements that the government is only as secular as it's citizens...

AND I AM GUILTY OF GETTING INTO A POLITICAL DEBATE WITH JC RIGHT NOW! This thread is about whether we can discuss these things, not whether America should be secular or not. We got off the subject because I'd brought up the fact that I thought you couldn't ban religious discussion, but not political discussion, because so many Americans vote according to their religious values. I still DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD BAN EITHER discussion, I just don't think you can really separate the topics that easily.


Tycho,

I have NEVER used a religious argument to repudiate abortion even though I do so with great zeal. That is what I take exception to. It really wasn't necessary to casually misrepresent a groups ideology in order to carry on a discussion of whether SSG forums were the place to carry on Religious debates. I'm not saying that a large number of religious folks don't support my position on the issue, but I think that, fundamentally, the argument against abortion doesn't require religious support in ANY way to be potent.

[Jargo]

Saying that you could have a thread called the Christian collector club is like saying you could have a blacks only thread or a girls only thread. It's a ridiculous notion that is on the one hand segregating and on the other hand elitist and clique-ish. Silly idea Tycho.

[Rogue II]

Actually, change my vote to "ban political and religious topics." I'm sick of people fighting over them. 2000+ years of wars haven't solved a single religious or political debate.

Being that this is a Star Wars Website, the fighting should be over Greedo shooting first, the quality of Hasbro products, and how dissapointed we are with the prequels.:D

"I can't believe you don't shut up!" - Apu

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Of course Stillakid doesn't consider the fact that very few people are willing to actually get into a real fight over Star Wars. Where as things like religion and politics have been responsible for centuries for causing fights, wars, and bloodshed. I doubt there is as many deaths attributed to Star Wars.


As much as you refuse to believe it, and unlike you, I consider absolutely everything. :) It would help your interpretation of my many statements greatly if you would cease taking them out of context in order to support your own faulty conclusions. Just another friendly reminder about that. But I digress...

The issue wasn't about the long range effects. What Steve was suggesting was that any topic that could cause an argument should be off limits...


Quote: Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
What is wrong with arguing and debating?

Quote: Originally posted by SirSteve
It causes problems. I can simply remove all the categories not related to Star Wars but I don't want to do that and I am sure no one wants that. A LOT of Forums don't allow the talk of those 2 topics because of all the problems it causes.

I was responding to the assertion that these "hot-button" topics should be pulled primarily because they "cause problems." My point was that any topic holds that potential and I suggested that if that's going to be the reason to institute bans, then any topic is eligible for that decision.

JediTricks adroitly addressed this later on:
Originally posted by JediTricks
"Should I bother finding the links to threads that are only about Star Wars yet inspire heated discussion and other unpleasantries? ANY topic regarding ANYTHING can lead to disagreement. Heck, forget the religious threads, the political threads, and the movie threads. Just look at some of the discussions about Hasbro toys for pete's sake."
True, any topic CAN lead to a disagreement and in general this is something the staff accepts. The difference between said other topics and these religious/political hot button topics is mainly the frequency in which they go bad and the level of pain they cause once they do; people seem to invest way more of themselves into these hot button topics, when they get hurt in these discussions, it carries over more than if someone told them Sith Training Maul is garbage or some such. It seems to be taken as the difference between telling someone their t-shirt is junk and telling someone their mother is trash. Despite what some may suggest, that level of cleanup is NOT the job most of the mods have signed on for, and it's not as easy as simply taking on new mods - there's plenty to consider when picking mods for just the Star Tours forum.


The ultimate question being brought up is where do you draw the line? If this site is all about the toys, then great. Disallow everything else...even discussion about the films. Afterall, they've led to some pretty heated exchanges and some of us at least seem to take our storytelling and interpretation skills pretty seriously and personally. If the films are allowed, then draw the line at extraneous topics. This works except that there are political and religious elements to the films that have to come up in any meaningful discussion.

Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
Saying that you could have a thread called the Christian collector club is like saying you could have a blacks only thread or a girls only thread. It's a ridiculous notion that is on the one hand segregating and on the other hand elitist and clique-ish.
Good point. How would management feel if I started the HETEROSEXUAL WHITE MALE COLLECTOR'S CLUB? Look, at the end of the day, I don't care what anybody does, but like I mentioned before, there doesn't seem